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Digest from 1 Jul 2000
to 2 Jul 2000
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 1 Jul 2000 to 2 Jul 2000 (#2000-180)
There are 3 messages totalling 386 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. The Anal-ytic School of Tango (2)
2. Fw: The Anal-ytic School of Tango
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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:46:42 +0000
From: Felix Delgado <felixmilonguero @JUNO.COM>
Subject: The Anal-ytic School of Tango
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:30:29 -0700 ramiro garcia <ramiro9 @YAHOO.COM>
writes:
concerning women's attendance at practicas
> What if what they want is to have a warm, intimate, friendly,
> enjoyable dance experience that thrills their hearts, and what
> they Don't Want is to have to analyze, focus, pay attention,
> struggle, practice endless boring balance and frame and
> lead-and-follow drills with imperfect, hesitant,
> groping-in-the-dark, critical leaders?
Ramiro's comments about over-analysis reminded me of a similar post a few
weeks ago:
On Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:55:54 -0600 Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET>
writes:
>
> I have noticed a strong tendency in tango instruction toward
> methodologies emphasizing analysis, structure and technique, rather
> than toward intuition, heart and connection.
>
> I'm not saying analysis, structure or technique are bad, but if you
> start people learning tango by emphasizing the Structure, isn't it
> much harder for them to discover the Heart?
>
> I know that our community was strongly introverted and analytical at
> the start. The good thing is that they (we) were working really hard
> at getting better, but if a real "party person" were to peek in,
> they
> would never come back. It took a while before our community finally
> consisted of a greater variety of personalities. But, the social
> scene never really became viable until we got past that heavy
> analytical emphasis.
I had wanted to respond in agreement to this post at that time, but after
several graduates of the Anal-ytic School of Tango objected to Tom's
desire to put heart into tango, I refrained. Now Ramiro's comments
suggest there are more (perhaps silent) people who share this view.
I've been dancing tango for about a year and I was attracted to it
because of the passion of the music and the ability to express this in
the dance. I enjoy holding a woman close and moving our bodies together
with the music.
As I've become more involved in tango, I've been taking more workshops
from the Masters. I've learned that there is a lot of technique involved
in dancing tango CORRECTLY and that I have been dancing very badly.
(Hundreds of dollars of private lessons have been suggested as a
treatment.) I went through a phase where I tried hard to improve my
technique, and people even commented that I was dancing better. However,
I realized I was losing a good part of my enjoyment of the dance. I think
good technique is fine and some of it is necessary, but a lot of
improvement can come from a lot of dancing. (The body learns to correct
its own mistakes.) As I've advanced through tango I've also discovered
that people become more critical. (Be nice to newcomers, but be critical
with the converts.) Although recent posts on this list have discussed men
being critical of women, I've experienced my share of criticism of my
dancing from women (at practicas and milongas, too). I've remedied this
by dancing mostly with women who enjoy the music and the connection (the
'heart') and I've learned to enjoy tango more again. Maybe I'm not
improving as fast as I would if I went to all of these obsessive
anal-ytic workshops, but I know I'm dancing better anyway. So what is the
goal of tango - perfection in technique or the enjoyment of the passion
of the music and the dance? I prefer the passion.
> Milongas are for social dancing, not teaching,
> criticizing, lecturing, or practicing.
I can't pass up this additional comment by Ramiro. I've experienced a lot
less 'helpful advice' at milongas than at practicas, but I had an
experience recently that almost had me quitting tango. There was a
milonga associated with the visit of some well-known traveling tango
instuctors. In an attempt to be friendly, I asked the woman of this
couple to dance at a milonga. Instead of being a 'love affair in 3
minutes', it was more like a slow death from poison. I must have received
at least 20 points of advice on how I could improve my tango, some of
which required stopping the flow of dance and some demonstration. I was
looking forward to escape at the end of the song, but as I made motions
to exit the dance floor, she said 'Where are you going? This is only the
first song of the tanda.' and I submitted to another 10 minutes of
destruction of my tango self-confidence.
Why can't we just relax and enjoy the beauty, passion, and intimacy of
tango some more and just let the analytic focus rest for a while when we
go to the milonga?
Felix
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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:50:37 +0200
From: andy Ungureanu <Andy.Ungureanu @T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: The Anal-ytic School of Tango
Felix Delgado schrieb:
> Why can't we just relax and enjoy the beauty, passion, and intimacy of
> tango some more and just let the analytic focus rest for a while when we
> go to the milonga?
>
> Felix
I perfectly agree that passion and intimacy is the highest goal to
reach, but this question implicate there is hart and music on one side
and analysis on the other.
Nobody sugested you have to think all the time which step is now to
execute.
Imagine dancing in the music and with the hart is like writing a poem.
Is it possible to write a poem in a language you dont really know,
neither words nor grammar??
It is very easy from a experienced point of view to say: Forget the
steps, just dance to the music! If you dance for some years it is ok. As
a beginner you dont even understand what this sentence means.
You can allow to forget the steps at the moment they go on
automatically, so you can just hear the music, dance like dreaming, see
there is no place in front, walk to the side or make a turn without any
effort and stil dance in the music. But if yo dont know how to manage
walking to the side at this point you will not hear the music anymore,
you have to think about the solution of the problem. Reaction on
unespected situations needs theoretical background or a lot of
experience.
Music and the partner are the most important things in this game, but
you cant play the game if you dont know the rules.
Andy
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:10:25 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Fw: The Anal-ytic School of Tango
I apologize for sending this to the Tango-A list by mistake. Outlook express
finished the recipients name for me but did it wrong :P
Manuel
Original Message -----
From: Manuel Patino <white95r @hotmail.com>
To: <felixmilonguero @JUNO.COM>; <TANGO-A @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: The Anal-ytic School of Tango
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Felix Delgado <felixmilonguero @JUNO.COM>
>
> (Tom said:)
>
> > > I'm not saying analysis, structure or technique are bad, but if you
> > > start people learning tango by emphasizing the Structure, isn't it
> > > much harder for them to discover the Heart?
>
> (Felix answered)
>
> > I had wanted to respond in agreement to this post at that time, but
after
> > several graduates of the Anal-ytic School of Tango objected to Tom's
> > desire to put heart into tango, I refrained. Now Ramiro's comments
> > suggest there are more (perhaps silent) people who share this view.
>
> Felix, I am appalled to find out that there are actually "Anal-ytic "
people
> out there who are actually against "putting heart into tango". Gosh, there
> is probably a huge "silent majority" out there who would agree with Tom,
> Ramiro and yourself (me too, i'm all for putting heart into tango).
>
> > I've been dancing tango for about a year and I was attracted to it
> > because of the passion of the music and the ability to express this in
> > the dance. I enjoy holding a woman close and moving our bodies together
> > with the music.
>
> Yeah, I agree with you here too. Expressing through dance the passion of
the
> music, and holding the woman close, etc, etc is indeed what tango is all
> about.
>
> >I've learned that there is a lot of technique involved
> > in dancing tango CORRECTLY and that I have been dancing very badly.
> > (Hundreds of dollars of private lessons have been suggested as a
> > treatment.)
>
> That is awfull, the desire of filthy luchre seems to have poisoned the
whole
> purity of tango. It is a shame that some people have the gall to try to
con
> unsuspecting beginners into a money pit of expensive priavte lessons and
> more. Next thing you know they'll be encouraging to attend more workshops
> and classes where you can be separated from your money. Don't fall for it!
>
>
> >I went through a phase where I tried hard to improve my
> > technique, and people even commented that I was dancing better. However,
> > I realized I was losing a good part of my enjoyment of the dance.
>
> This is an interesting observation. Perhaps the enemy of true tango is
> really technique and practice. Who needs to *dance well* if one loses the
> enjoyment of the dance?
>
> >I think
> > good technique is fine and some of it is necessary, but a lot of
> > improvement can come from a lot of dancing. (The body learns to correct
> > its own mistakes.)
>
> I'm not so sure about this. It sort of sounds like "self healing" or in
this
> case "self dancing"? Perhaps if one just relaxes, rests and eats well,
one's
> own body will intuitively know how to dance tango? Maybe somebody was
> correct when they posted a while back about how the very young. They said
> that children know intuitively how to move to the music and it was only
> other people's influence and critricism as they grew that inhibited the
> *natural* talent and dance ability we are all born with?
>
>
> > As I've advanced through tango I've also discovered
> > that people become more critical. (Be nice to newcomers, but be critical
> > with the converts.) Although recent posts on this list have discussed
men
> > being critical of women, I've experienced my share of criticism of my
> > dancing from women (at practicas and milongas, too).
>
> Hey, I'm with you on this one. Nobody likes to be criticized. It does not
> matter whether it's done at milongas or anyplace else, criticism is hard
to
> take.
>
> > I've remedied this
> > by dancing mostly with women who enjoy the music and the connection (the
> > 'heart')
>
> Good idea, but I think that you left out two crucial words: *with me*.
> Otherwise you are suggesting that the women who criticize you do not enjoy
> "the connection (the heart)" or the music.
>
>
> >and I've learned to enjoy tango more again.
>
>
> I wonder what your partners enjoyment level is now?
>
>
> >Maybe I'm not
> > improving as fast as I would if I went to all of these obsessive
> > anal-ytic workshops, but I know I'm dancing better anyway. So what is
the
> > goal of tango - perfection in technique or the enjoyment of the passion
> > of the music and the dance? I prefer the passion.
>
> The passion of tango is about *tango*. Tango is a dance, a specialized
> activity with certain defined parameters. The enjoyment of tango is like
the
> enjoyment of anything else. Some people enjoy just doing their activities
in
> any way while others enjoy doing what they do as well as they can. Passion
> can be felt about a huge number of activities or predilections. Perhaps an
> infinite number of things. Passion between a man a woman can readily and
> easily be felt without the need of tango or any other music or dance.
> Actually, it does not even need a prone position ;) If you want tango,
then
> dance tango. If you want passion you need not dance tango to feel or
express
> it.
>
>
> >I had an
> > experience recently that almost had me quitting tango. There was a
> > milonga associated with the visit of some well-known traveling tango
> > instuctors. In an attempt to be friendly, I asked the woman of this
> > couple to dance at a milonga. Instead of being a 'love affair in 3
> > minutes', it was more like a slow death from poison. I must have
received
> > at least 20 points of advice on how I could improve my tango, some of
> > which required stopping the flow of dance and some demonstration. I was
> > looking forward to escape at the end of the song, but as I made motions
> > to exit the dance floor, she said 'Where are you going? This is only the
> > first song of the tanda.' and I submitted to another 10 minutes of
> > destruction of my tango self-confidence.
>
> Perhaps after you've been dancing tango for more than year you can
> understand and appreciate things like technique, practice, musicality and
> precision. Although you had a bad experience, that does not reveal the
whole
> picture of your interaction with this teacher. Without being in your
> (tango:)) shoes, nobody can deny your experience, but there are a few
things
> that you might not know.
> You said "In an attempt to be friendly, I asked the woman of this couple
to
> dance at a milonga". You might not know but this is not the way or the
> reason to ask someone to dance. First, it is not a "friendly gesture" for
a
> beginner to ask a master to dance a a milonga, it is an imposition. The
> friendly and respectfull thing to do is to allow the master to choose who
> they will dance with or if they will even dance that night.
> You don't say if you attended the workshops or not or even if you watched
> this woman dance with others before you asked her. Perhaps you did not and
> had no idea of what could happen. OTOH, maybe you took the workshops and
all
> and felt that your dancing was good enough to entertain the master. At any
> rate, it seems that this teacher thought that your request was for help
and
> advise. She obviously felt you needed some coaching and she gave you about
> 15 minutes of private lesson for free!
> It's too bad that you felt as if you "submitted to another 10 minutes of
> destruction of my tango self-confidence."
> At least you got some free lessons and now you know that you don't enjoy
> this teacher's teaching. Both are good things. Next time, before you ask a
> master to dance you'll probably consider their temperament and your level
> more carefully.
>
> I don't know about everybody but for me (and many others) tango is
something
> to be taken seriously, not analytically or like a subject of dry academic
> study, but seriously. Tango is not just a lark like going to a disco with
> some friends every now and then and just "moving to the music". There is
> plenty of "passion" to be had at any place where men, women, alcohol and
> music are thrown together with that in mind.
> Tango is impossible to take it lightly by it's very nature, the music,
> lyrics and dance make it a thing of deep emotions and feelings. If tango
is
> to be taken seriously, then it must be done well. Just feeling intense
> feelings is not sufficient to dance tango. Almost all people are capable
of
> intense feelings and passion. Almost all people like the physical
closeness
> to the opposite (or with some, the same) sex. Again, having this
> predilection is not enough to dance tango well. I hate to burst anyone's
> bubble, but tango just ain't that simple.
>
> I don't want to discourage beginners or to make tango seem more
complicated
> or academic than it is. I do want to share with people my experiece about
> tango. As much as I enjoyed tango when I first began dancing it, it was
> nothing compared with what it is now. The more I learn and understand
tango,
> the better I like it, the more I can enjoy it. I know that I also still
have
> much to learn about tango and that I'll enjoy it even more when I gain
more
> skill dancing it. The rub is that tango requires learning, practice and
> technique. There are no short cuts except for a lucky few who have such
> natural talent that they become masters in a short time. I believe that
easy
> fixes are not good. Tango cannot be danced well by just magically willing
> it. No amount of heart and passion can make up for clumsiness and
ignorance,
> these can only be overcome by study and practice. The rewards of study and
> practice are better than one can imagine. Please do not be discouraged by
> the difficulty of tango and do not be seduced by some bogus "touchy-feely"
> tango. Passion and heart are what tango is all about, but the expression
and
> experience of this heart and passion require hard work. Tango is not easy,
> it demands respect and dedication. The more you put into tango the more
you
> will get out of it too.
>
> Passionate, heartfull tangos to all,
>
> Manuel
>
>
>
End of TANGO-L Digest - 1 Jul 2000 to 2 Jul 2000 (#2000-180)
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