The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 23 Feb 2000
to 24 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 03:00:14 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 23 Feb 2000 to 24 Feb 2000 (#2000-52)
There are 8 messages totalling 581 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. ugly/beautiful people
2. Naranjo en flor - Flowering orange tree
3. NA-W: SF's All Night Milonga Features Guest Teacher/DJ
4. '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics. (2)
5. '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics. (2)
6. Ladies' night in Helsinki
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:46:05 EST
From: Frank Sasson <FRSASSON @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ugly/beautiful people
In a message dated 02/22/2000 4:35:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET writes:
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Taylor <jtaylor @RICE.EDU>
In the milonga in Argentina, there is no question of ugly or handsome men.
The ONLY thing that matters if they can dance. Therefore the handsome and
beautiful, if that is all they have to offer, are Ignored.
I have not been to Argentina, so I'm sure if this is wrong someone will
straighten me out, BUT I have heard the opposite - that beautiful YOUNG
women always get invited to dance, regardless of tango skill, in the
milongas of BA. Since this is also how the world is in many other respects,
I don't think we can say we are shocked (shocked!) to learn this......
many happy tangos to ALL dancers,
Melinda
Hello list:
In my opinion, you cannot place all men in the same category when it comes to
tango. Observe the good tangueros at any milonga and you will notice their
eyes are
glued to the ground, watching the movement of the feet, to determine the
skill of the tangueras.
However, and in defense of us tangueros, the good ones will dance with the
most accomplished dancers, but will also help out with the beginners or
intermediate tangueras.
And since beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, in my view, there are no
ugly tangueras, only some that are less skilled than others.
Frank
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:59:40 -0800
From: Stella Milano <stellamilano @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Naranjo en flor - Flowering orange tree
The beauty of this song , no only are in the worlds witch one's
show the great Homero Esposito creativity and poetry make of
him one of de best Tango writers,olso in the mining This especial
song is no dedicate to a love, woman, o harth break, is dedicate
to the youngest time in life, the juventud, the part I like
most is Que le habran hecho, mis manos what my hands to do to
her,the life, que le habran hecho What they must they have done
... ours hands all ways remain us the we getting older. Is a
beautiful song, were each word as special mining, and each verse
take you to he journey of life time. Naranjo en flor is one of
my favorite Tango-song. Please take 10 minutes of your time tangueros
and read those words.
Stella Milano
--- Original Message ---
Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar> Wrote on
Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:42:21 -0500
------------------
Lyrics by Homero Exposito (1918-1987)
Era mas blanda que el agua, She was softer than water,
que el agua blanda, than soft water,
era mas frresca que el rio, she was fresher than the
river,
naranjo en floor... flowering orange tree...
Y en esa calle the estio, In that summer street,
calle perdida, lost street,
dejo un pedazo de vida she left a piece of life
y se marcho... and left...
Primero hay que saber sufrir, First one has to know suffering,
despues amar, despues partir then how to love, then how
to depart,
y al fin andar sin pensamiento... at the end walk thoughtless
roads...
Perfume de naranjo en flor, Perfume of flowering orange
tree,
promesas vanas de un amor useless promisses of love
que se escaparon en el viento... that escaped in the wind...
Despues, que importa el despues? Afterwards, does it count?
Toda mi vida es el ayer All my life is a yesterday
que me detiene en el pasado, that detains me in my past,
eterna y vieja juventud eternal, ancient youth
que me ha dejado acobardado that has left me intimidated
como un pajaro sin luz. like a bird without light.
Que le habran hecho mis manos? What did my hands do to her?
Que le habran hecho What must they have
done
para dejarme en el pecho to leave in my chest
tanto dolor? so much pain?
Dolor de vieja arboleda, Pain of an old grove,
cancion de esquina song in a street corner
con un pedazo de vida, with a piece of life,
naranjo en flor... Flowering orange
tree...
A lost love. Intense love that existed in other time, in another
place.
Love of youth, when senses are more awake, when its loss leave
permanent, very deep scars.
Love that strikes with intensity, in a transient way; like the
perfume
of flowering orange trees in the spring.
One soon learns that love, separation, suffering, living in
the past,
remorse for what went wrong, walking thoughtless roads
is part of the same experience of life.
Life where there is room for only one, unique love.
Other time, other place, other people...
Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html )
The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:03:00 EST
From: Kat Kwan <KatKw @AOL.COM>
Subject: NA-W: SF's All Night Milonga Features Guest Teacher/DJ
La Rayuela, San Francisco's only all night milonga is hosting our friend from
the North, Alex Krebs, as guest teacher and DJ.
This month's milonga is on Saturday, February 26th. The lesson, included in
admission, begins at 9:00 p.m. with dancing starting at 10:30 p.m. Admission
is $10.00.
Location: The Beat, 2560 9th St., Berkeley
For Info Call: 510-548-5348
Hopefully the weather will be clear, but if not what better place to be
during the rain than dancing the night away. I don't have any financial
interest in this milonga and hope spreading the word means we all have one
more place to dance.
Kat
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:12:34 PST
From: Alejandro Oyuela <alejandro_oyuela @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
Very nice conversation.
Here is my personal take:
In interpreting tango lyrics we should keep in mind that the poetry of
tango, as it is the case with most poetry, is conceived as a sequence of
images. Images, in turn, evoke feelings, and the particular SEQUENCE in
which those feelings are presented makes for a special and unique experience
for the listener.
The more ambiguity is built into the text, the more room for interpretation.
However, because PLACEMENT of ideas is important, we can t analyze a poem
solely in terms of evidence presented .
In the case of Charlemos , my personal view is that the difference between
Frank s and Sergio s translation of the final line is only a matter of
linguistic preference without changing the meaning or intent. In the overall
scheme of things, having already presented a gloomy picture, that line is
intended as a "punch line" to deliver a final (and somewhat unexpected)
dramatic blow. In fact, if there had been any previous reference to
blindness in the text, the effect would have been lost. It is interesting
how that line also alters the meaning of no puedo, no puedo verla , which
had been left behind as if the telephone was the reason for not being able
to see her, adding a clever final twist.
Although we can speculate and open the text to interpretation, we should
acknowledge how a particular text first impacts our feelings. In this case,
I believe blindness is what the author intended to convey, or at least what
it conveyed to me. As far as interpreting the text metaphorically, the
parallel between blindness and human alienation seems here very appropriate
since it points out how the telephone (or e-mail) brings us together but at
the price of blindness towards the person we are talking to.
alejandro
>From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @ENG.SUN.COM>
>Reply-To: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy.zelaya @eng.sun.com>
>To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:29:38 -0800
>
>Hola muchachos,
>
>As you all know, one of the toughest challenges in translation is that
>while one can be technically accurate, the resulting
>translation/interpretation
>may be off the mark due to cultural or linguistic reasons.
>
>The last line of this tango is a perfect example of this:
>
> >>soy ciego... perdoneme... I am blind...Forgive me... (Sergio's
>trans.)
> >>soy ciego... perdoneme... Forgive me... I am blind... (Frank's
>trans.)
>
>Leaves open the question of whether the speaker was physically
>blind or figuratively blind (as in "I was blinded by her beauty").
>
>Frank's analysis states that:
> >>''Charlemos'' deals with the terrible isolation of a man, due to his
> >> blindness.
>
>I contend that there is no evidence of that. In fact, two lines in the
>tango
> >>No cuelgue... la tarde es triste. Don't hang up... the afternoon is
>gloomy.
>and
> >>Soqemos en la gris tarde que llueve Let's dream, in the gray rainy
>afternoon
>make visual references that indicate that the speaker may have his sight.
>
>I interpret 'soy ciego... perdoneme' as an admittance the speaker
>makes to himself and the person on the phone of the futility of
>pretending to be someone else (as in 'What am I saying... forgive me')
>rather than a confession of being physically unable to see.
>
>In fact, with a little imagination (and a lot of speculating moxie ;-)
>one can make the point that when the speaker says:
>
> >>Hablemos de un amor... Let's talk about an affair...
> >>Seremos ella y el We'll be her and him
> >>Y con su voz and with your voice
> >>Mi angustia cruel My cruel anguish
> >>sera mas leve will be milder
>
>he is referring to Renee and her new lover and the anguish and sadness
>that the spurned lover is feeling on this gray rainy afternoon. The voice
>of the lady on the phone brings him solace but he realizes that it
>will not change the fact that she is not Renee and he is not her
>new lover.
>
>The lines
> >>Que dice? Tratar de vernos? What are you saying? Try to see each other?
> >>No puedo.. no puedo verla. I can't... I can't see you...
> >>Sigamos con la ilusion... Let's continue the illusion
>
>seem to confirm that were the man and the lady on the phone
>to meet in person the illusion or pretense that she is Renee
>would vanish.
>
>I consider this interpretation more thematically consistent
>with the tango tradition of the dejected lover singing about
>the woman who left him for another man. No?
>
>Saludos,
>---
>ruddy
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:05:36 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
Original Message-----
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar>
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2000 3:13 PM
Subject: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
>Tango lyrics reflect sociological and philosophical conditions and
belief of
>people in certain place during certain period.
>The analysis of these lyrics bring to light those conditions and
bilief.
>''Charlemos'' deals with the terrible isolation of a man, due to his
>blindness. Man who attempts to fulfill his need for love, talking to a
>stranger on the phone; knowing that he will never be able to see or
meet
>her, for he is, one could say, to proud to impose his handicap on a
healthy
>woman.
>In modern times when isolation is common in other countries; men spend
>large amounts of money talking on the phone to
>female strangers, more due to loneliness than to sexual perversion. In
>Argentina where all social diseases spread by the Global Economy to
the
>''emergent markets'', are adquiring epidemic proportions; isolation is
not.
>This undoubtely due to the strong support provided by family and
>friends.Unfortunately this immunity should not last very long either.
>
Here is Milton(John), on the same subject, his own blindness
late in his life which he of course used to write his epic
poetry (this one is from samson agoniste).
Besides, he had no phone, tango was not yet born, the time
was sometime after the first phase of globalization(colonization)
and just after Cromwell probably had 'fired' the king.
Different period, place, country, but same sentiments(desperation/
resignation) expressed a little differently(except for the number
of lines, I can not gurantee exactness of anything else ...but
should be close to the original):
O loss of sight of thee I most complain!
Blind among enemies, O worse than chains
Dungeon, beggary or decrepit age.
Light, prime work of God to me is exitnct
And all her various objects of delight
Annulled, which in part my grief have eased.
Inferior now I have become of man or worm
Vilest here excel me -- they creep yet see
I, dark in light exposed to daily fraud, contempt
Abuse and wrong, within doors and without still a fool
Always in powers of others, never on my own,
Scarce half I seem to live, dead more than half
O! dark dark dark in the blaze of noon
Irrevocably dark, total eclipse
Without all hope of day!
Surely, he would have liked to tango ? ;-)
Someone earlier wrote about this list:
> I am starting to believe that this list is really for those of you who
are
> lonely, sick and cruel. I am definitly signing-off from the tango
list.
> Get your acts together and get a life....
One of the things that I like about tango is that it is much less
pretentious than most other dances. It is the dance for
the outsider. Civility is second only to being true to oneself --
one may or may not invite someone else to dance. There is nothing
forced-- quite a primitive dance. And, as is evident from the lyrics
and tango itself, it is hard to say these lifeless creatures are
without some merit from their contribution to the dance and literature.
However, I am quite happy sometimes that I
do not know spanish so that I do miss some of the
lyrics which could perhaps be soppy(or may be this
belief is misplaced?).
BTW, Piazzolla considered the singer a 'villian'
in the way of development of tango music and got rid of
the character in his own ensamble -- I wonder if it is
because of or despite the fact that his big break came
from being invited to be in Gardel's orchestra...
rajan.
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:26:56 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
Alejandro wrote:
>In interpreting tango lyrics we should keep in mind that the poetry of
>tango, as it is the case with most poetry, is conceived as a sequence of
>images. Images, in turn, evoke feelings, and the particular SEQUENCE in
>which those feelings are presented makes for a special and unique
>experience for the listener.
Good poetry also offers multiple meanings, which is why it is so difficult
to translate. If the translation gets too specific, the possibility for
multiple meanings is lost. If the translation is not specific enough, the
result may be vague. That a number of possibilities exist in the English
translations suggests that Sergio and Frank have done a good job with the
available lyrics. (Additional lyrics to "Charlemos" can be found on the
Planet Tango website <http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/>.
>I believe blindness is what the author intended to convey, or at least
>what it conveyed to me.
As someone who has been figuratively blinded by my emotions of passion,
love, anger, greed, and others I cannot recall (but not physically), I find
a greater affinity for Ruddy's interpretation that the man was blinded
figuratively, but I also enjoy the fact that one could interpret it to mean
the man is physically blind.
>As far as interpreting the text metaphorically, the parallel between
>blindness and human alienation seems here very appropriate since it
>points out how the telephone (or e-mail) brings us together but at the
>price of blindness towards the person we are talking to.
Interpretation of tango lyrics as representing feelings of alienation seems
totally appropriate. In the past, Alberto Paz and others have talked about
how the lyrics to tangos represent a sense of loss that Argentinos felt
about being in Argentina instead of their original homelands. In a
figurative sense, "Charlemos" can also be interpreted in such a way.
Perhaps Renee represents the speaker's homeland, and the stranger on the
line represents Argentina. For whatever reason, the speaker left his
homeland for the new world, but now he feels rejected and betrayed by his
homeland--which could not support him, and which he cannot find, to which
he cannot return, and whose existence he now doubts. Argentina (the
stranger on the line) cannot replace his feelings for his homeland (Renee).
In his anguish and blindness, he has sought to fill the feelings for his
homeland (Renee) with Argentina (the stranger on the line), but when he is
confronted with the reality of his existence (when the stranger suggests
they meet), he prefers illusion.
Dancing Argentine tango itself can create such feelings--particularly when
it is danced with the proper stranger. For the length of a well-danced and
magically sublime tango, we touch each others hearts in way words cannot
match. We get a sense of returning to a home where we belong, where we
loved and felt loved--even if that home exists only in the depths of our
souls rather than our personal history. Then sadly, the song ends, the
dance is over, and we return as strangers to our respective tables or sides
of the room. Worse, we can begin talking and find that all we have in
common is a history of well-danced tango together. Maybe it is better for
us to remain strangers with our illusions, as the speaker decides in
"Charlemos."
--Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:43:31 +0200
From: "Jari Aalto+list.tango" <posting-list @MAILANDNEWS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ladies' night in Helsinki
* Mon 2000-02-21 Erik Grandmass <MassettiE @AOL.COM> list.tango
* Message-Id: <97.22056f0.25e34025 @aol.com>
|
| I have heard that there is a dancing place in Helsinki, Finland, where
| once a week, I believe on Wednesdays, it's "ladies' night", which
| means the ladies invite the men to dance.
This is nothing exceptional. Finland has strong folklore dance culture
where women has asked men to dance for ages now. I don't know how many
years there has been one day of the week dedicated solely under name
"ladies' night", but I assume the start impact was restaurant business
some 10 years back, where they were suffering from lack of customers.
Putting a label "ladies'" tried to persuade more women to visit the places.
It has succeeded and the night has been quite popular all over the country.
| I am wondering if anybody knows about this place,
Pick any restaurant at any City. The local newspaper usually tells which
day a restaurant holds the event. Usually Tuesday or Thursday, when the
other days are more "busy".
| if it is an argentine tango milonga, or a finnish tango dance, or
| some other dances, and what it feels,
It's the usual European dancing, namely the ballroom style: Foxtrot
mostly, tango from time to time and possibly samba and jive. It all
depends on the orchestra and its reportoire. The "dance" music in
Finland is 80% foxtrot, the other styles share the rest of the
piece. Tango is not that popular as you would think.
Don't try Agentina Tango, women get upset when they don't know what
you mean.
There is no Argentine Tango places to speak of in Finland. There are some
occasional nights in the outskirts, but the group of dancers is too small
to carry enough money for any restaurant. I may be wrong here, since I've
not heard of Helsinki's Tango Association fro a while. Maybe they have
regular nights already.
| being used to do the invitations, to find instead yourself on the
| other side... (Oh no, that ugly lady is coming right towards
| me....!) (Why isn't that beautiful brunette ever coming my way?
| Should I move to a table right in her way?).
If you're asked, its purely that you have been seen on the dance
floor. That you danced well :-)
| I am planning to visit to Helsinki, an answer to the above would be greately
| apreciated.
Pick up newspaer, flip to last pages and you're all set. Choose
"Helsingin Sanomat" (= Helsinki Tribune)
jari, Tampere (in the Middle of the Finland)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:19:48 -0600
From: "kata @pitton.com" <kata @PITTON.COM>
Subject: Re: '' Charlemos '' Analysis of translation and lyrics.
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar>
>In modern times when isolation is common in other countries;
>men spend large amounts of money talking on the phone to
>female strangers, more due to loneliness than to sexual perversion.
>In Argentina where all social diseases spread by the Global Economy
>to the ''emergent markets'', are adquiring epidemic proportions;
>isolation is not.
>This undoubtely due to the strong support provided by family and
>friends.Unfortunately this immunity should not last very long either.
I don't agree that the strong sense of family in Lat Am has saved
individuals in those countries from feelings of isolation. Especially not
in Buenos Aires.
Argentina has many, many psychiatrists and psychologists per capita and a
high rate of suicide. And "melancolico", "amargado" and "bajoneado" are
common characteristics among more than a few porten~os.
Argentina is a country of immigrants and many of them left behind their
friends and family in Europe and found themselves very much alone in their
new land. And as in most Lat Am countries, there are also many people from
the "interior" who go to the capital to look for better opportunities,
leaving behind their family and friends in their hometowns.
In general, people in large cities, even in family-oriented Lat Am, often
feel great isolation and loneliness. A excellent example of this is the
Chilean short story "Una sen~ora" by Jose Donoso. Another example is the
great number of both men and women who talk to total strangers in IRC, the
Internet chat. In fact, among Spanish-speaking countries, Argentina has a
very large presence in Internet chat.
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
>However, I am quite happy sometimes that I do not know spanish
>so that I do miss some of the lyrics which could perhaps be soppy
>(or may be this belief is misplaced?).
I delete a lot of the threads about gossip and such things, but as a
translator and Spanish instructor, I've been following the threads about
translating tangos with some interest.
The comment above is a good excuse to ask all of you a question I've been
asking myself for a while now:
For those who don't understand Spanish or who don't understand Rioplatense
Spanish, how much do you think you're missing, if you think you're missing
anything at all? Are there others who think it's an advantage not to
really understand the words?
Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
Kate
PS
A "blusero" lawyer in Buenos Aires wrote an article about 2 or 3 years ago
comparing Blues & Tango. I think it was published in a Blues newsletter
from Oregon or Washington State. Does anyone remember seeing it? I'd be
interested in hearing your views.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 23 Feb 2000 to 24 Feb 2000 (#2000-52)
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