The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 9 Feb 2000
to 10 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:00:13 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 9 Feb 2000 to 10 Feb 2000 (#2000-40)
There are 6 messages totalling 295 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "Rosi's Comments" - Thank you List
2. Learning tango from ballroom dance instructors
3. Gavito's Passion (was Fabian Salas in San Francisco) (2)
4. Adam & Eve TANGO-L Digest - 8 Feb 2000 to 9 Feb 2000 (#2000-39)
5. Gavito and Fabian
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 00:58:30 EST
From: Rosa Maria Perez <Rositango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Rosi's Comments" - Thank you List
Dear List:
I received more than 200 requests for my "censored posting." I am sorry that
I am unable to personally respond to all your messages. Thank you for your
suggestions on how to participate on Tango-L without making the postings
personal.
I appreciate all the positive comments and look forward to adventuring on
this new exotic means of communicating with the Tango world.
Sincerely,
Rosi
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:02:02 EST
From: Leonardo Tanguero <TangoLeon @AOL.COM>
Subject: Learning tango from ballroom dance instructors
Juan Rando writes:
> And so I set off to discover Tango, first in Argentina, California, and
> finally in Miami for a total of 16 months. Through this period of time,
> I came across many instructors. The one frustration I had, was the
> constant feeling that many of the leads that were being taught, and
> other techniques were being 'made up' so to speak. They were crude,
> sometimes brutal, and often awkward. Furthermore, various patterns of
> steps seemed to have no real lead other than practising with a partner
> you knew until you knew it by rote. I found it frustrating,
> particularly as you move through different parts of world, and everyone
> has their own steps, with no common base to lead from.
>
> Where I found the most satisfaction was amongst those instructors who
> were professional ballroom dancers who had turned to Argentine Tango.
> Their perceptions of leading and following made so much more sense, and
> always worked more gracefully.
My partner and I had our introduction to Argentine tango through private
lessons from a ballroom dance instructor who has a strong interest (for a
ballroom dance instructor) in Argentine tango. In agreement with Juan's
point, we experienced a strong emphasis on technique rather than steps, which
really helped the development of our tango. However, without intending to be
critical of this wonderful instructor to whom we are grateful for helping us
get started in tango, it soon became apparent to us that we wanted more
detail, more variety, something that we could only acquire from someone who
specializes in instruction in Argentine tango. However, from our admittedly
limited experience with private lessons from 3 instructors who specialize in
Argentine tango, we have come to a different conclusion that Juan does. All 3
instructors have strongly emphasized technique, going into even greater
detail than we experienced with the ballroom dance instructor.
Please excuse the following generalizations because there are always
exceptions, but drawing upon our experience with several ballroom dance and
several Argentine tango instructors (plus conversations with others and
reading dance literature extensively) I believe it is fair to say that
whereas ballroom dance instructors are exceptional in their attention to
dance technique, most teach 15 to 20 dances and few specialize in Argentine
tango and this strategy results in their knowing less about Argentine tango
than a tango specialist, and thus, most Argentine tango instructors know
tango technique better.
There are also several aspects of dancing Argentine tango that, as a general
rule, are absent in ballroom dance instructors.
There is no ballroom dance that elicits or expresses the intensity of emotion
characteristic of Argentine tango. Although expression of true emotion cannot
be readily taught, learning tango from someone who does not express emotion
is unlikely to result in the understanding of the expression of emotion in
tango.
Also, as I understand it, improvisation at the minute level is virtually
absent from ballroom dancing. Ballroom dances are taught as a series of
'steps', where each 'step' covers several measures of music. Ultimately, in
Argentine tango, the 'step' becomes the single displacement of the body from
one position to another, covering as little as 1 beat of music. With each
displacement there are many subsequent possibilities. This is a new concept
for ballroom dancers and, I believe, many ballroom dance instructors.
[ Note that these conclusions are based on instruction in private lessons.
Instruction in groups is likely to produce different experiences. ]
I do not intend to be critical of ballroom dance instructors because they
serve a very important role for people wanting to learn a variety of dances,
including Argentine tango. I would also be glad to hear that there are
ballroom dance instructors who improvise and express intense emotion while
dancing Argentine tango. However, if one intends to become a serious student
of Argentine tango, I believe there is no substite for the experienced
specialist in Argentine tango instruction.
Leonardo
El Leon del Tango
TangoLeon @aol.com
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:48:55 -0600
From: Bob Dronski <bob @TANGONADAMAS.COM>
Subject: Gavito's Passion (was Fabian Salas in San Francisco)
Hi all!
Silvia, I must heartily disagree. You wrote:
> Maybe you are wondering because what you saw was not a fake that professional
> stage dancers are used to exhibiting on a nightly basis. You don't really
> think that all that drama and passion that Gavito and Marcela demonstrate is
> real?
And just maybe you don't know about Gavito! Have you ever seen
him dance in a milonga? Because that's *exactly* how he danced
at Tango...nada mas Saturday night with several women.
Whatever you may feel about his unique style, no one can argue
that you don't always see the passion in his dance. And yes, that
passion is real.
He also spent a large part of a men's only class Saturday here in
Chicago explaining the importance of his embrace--how if you
removed the woman you would see that his right hand is over his
heart, and how his left wrist became a contact of pulse points with
the woman's wrist.
Fabian's discussion of his embrace would probably talk about how
much easier it will make his execution of steps and how it creates
more fluidity in his motion--NOT about the soul of tango!
> Maybe all you saw was two friends, who rarely work together,
> having fun,
> improvising, just as they used to doing it at Cochabamba 444. Maybe they don't
> feel like faking some intimacy that does not exist, even if it's an
> exhibition.
> Maybe, just maybe, you saw something genuine - not a tango for "Export".
My dear Silvia, seeing Gavito become immersed in the music with
any partner with the feeling he always has is something genuine,
and simply doing acrobatics for acrobatics' sake regardless of the
music IS tango for Export! This is not a "maybe" in my book!
bob
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Check us out at
http://www.tangonadamas.com
"Tango...the dance of moral death"
anon
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:00:46 EST
From: No Name Available <Want2Dance @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Adam & Eve TANGO-L Digest - 8 Feb 2000 to 9 Feb 2000 (#2000-39)
In a message dated 2/9/2000 4:00:43 AM, you wrote:
<<Chas Gale, Denver, CO
PS, Eve calls out to God "Lord, I have a problem!">>
I have been reading the thread about women asking men to dance for a
while & holding back, but Chas' story & comments brought some humor that I
loved & made me feel like commenting. I will repeat the Adam & Eve story with
clients in my clinical practice (psychology) when it's appropriate. Thanks
for adding some humor to the topic.
When I was suddenly single, I went to a singles dance (from my ethnic
background, Jewish) where the men were all complaining about women turning
them down. It was horrible. The women in this particular group seemed afraid
to dance with anyone they weren't interested in, thinking that men would not
ask them to dance if they were with men they weren't interested in. The men
stopped asking and were really upset. The women were complaining, too.
Although I danced & spoke to people of all ages at the event, I found it to
be a terrible social scene & never returned.
That experience was part of the reason, I started frequenting ballroom,
tango, swing, & Country Western & Cajun events. I had danced all my life, so
I felt fine going alone. It's a far better way to meet people, but for men &
women, there are no clear ways to know who's single or how to break the ice
when you are new. That was 7 years ago & my observations led to searching for
ways to help single dancers.
As a psychologist, dancer & organizer of a network to help single dancers
find partners, I've given a lot of thought to the social aspects of dance.
I've just started writing a Single Dancers' Guide & am posting entries on my
web site, with reviews of dance sites from a single dancer's perspective. The
guide is applicable to anyone who goes dancing wanting to dance with other
dancers (even if they mainly dance with their regular partner or spouse). I'd
love any input, critiques of what I've written & suggestions of places to
review around the country (I'm starting with places I know & have a 2nd corres
pondent who will be traveling & sending me reviews to edit. We may add
additional dance correspondents in the future.).
What I'm hoping to do is help people know what to look for & learn how to
break the ice in new dance situations. Norms are different in different dance
venues & localities, but there are ways to try to put your foot on the dance
floor, & not in your mouth! Some people are better at politely letting
someone know they'd rather dance with someone else than others. I'd recommend
that if you just turned a partner down saying you are too tired & someone
asks you that you'd like to dance with, explain the situation to the 2nd
potential partner, take a break & talk with them till the next number.
I understand that this is not a purely tango related subject (which is
why I've just observed & not commented, it's also my style given my training
as a therapist!) so send comments/critiques/suggestions in private e-mails &
I'll continue reading & observing quietly on the list.
Barbara Bogdanow Lavi
Do You Want2Dance?
http://www.want2dance.bigstep.com
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:43:35 -0500
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Gavito's Passion (was Fabian Salas in San Francisco)
Bob Dronski <bob @TANGONADAMAS.COM> writes:
"And just maybe you don't know about Gavito..."
...
"He also spent a large part of a men's only class Saturday here in
Chicago explaining the importance of his embrace--how if you
removed the woman you would see that his right hand is over his
heart, and how his left wrist became a contact of pulse points with
the woman's wrist."
I hate to disappoint you, Bob, but I do know Gavito and have taken classes
with him, and have experienced his embrace. I pass no judgement on his style
of dancing and I don't know how other women like his embrace, but he almost
broke my back! I found it extremely uncomfortable dancing with Gavito,
although I do very much like close embrace dancing.
Later in your message, Bob, you say: ..."simply doing acrobatics for
acrobatics' sake regardless of the music IS tango for Export! This is not a
"maybe" in my book!"
This is correct!!! That's what I see in the "Tango Forever" show - acrobatics
and cliches galore.
However, only someone who has never seen Fabian Salas dance, can call his
Tango - "acrobatics". Fabian Salas ALWAYS dances to music: DiSarli, Pugliese,
Calo, D'Agostino, DeCaro, Piazzolla, etc... And only someone who has never
taken a lesson with one of the most in-demand teachers (in-demand by
professional and amature dancers alike) in the Tango capital of the world -
Buenos Aires, and the rest of the Tango universe, can so erroneously speculate
on how Fabian teaches the embrace. One thing for sure, he is not so
presumptuous of himself to "teach the Soul of Tango".
I hope you are not going to attack Yo-Yo Ma for daring to call his CD - "The
Soul of Tango".
I say, let us agree to disagree and avoid the contest of which teacher is
"right" and which one is "wrong". You enjoy Gavito - bless you.
Sincerely,
Silvia.
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:31:33 -0800
From: William Alsup <walsup @EUROPA.COM>
Subject: Re: Gavito and Fabian
I've been taught some very significant concepts by Gavito. ONE of them is to
create an interesting and connected dance within a very limited space on the
social floor. Gavito rarely "passes" anyone, and is happy to progress only
15 or 20 feet during the course of a three-minute tune if that is all space
allows. Gavito is at heart a true milonguero, and is rare (I believe)
because of his ability to enlarge and energize his movements for the stage -
or (if you will) transmit "passion" to a large room. He knows his audience,
and he delivers.
For me, though, Fabian (and his colleague Chicho) embody the essence of what
I love about tango. The feather-light touch, the freedom, the fluidity, the
playfulness, the constant creativity, all of which take (in addition to
great balance) a special rapport with your partner. And I do appreciate the
purity (meaning minimal use of drama) in Fabian's dance.
Bill,
Portland, OR
End of TANGO-L Digest - 9 Feb 2000 to 10 Feb 2000 (#2000-40)
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