The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 8 Feb 2000
to 9 Feb 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 03:00:21 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 8 Feb 2000 to 9 Feb 2000 (#2000-39)
There are 11 messages totalling 517 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Fabian Salas in San Francisco (4)
2. Tango music (2)
3. Milonga CD
4. asking men to dance
5. nuevo tango, old tango - new steps, old steps - same people
6. Msg from Galina about Fabian
7. An old argument - Tango Nuevo
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:32:05 -0500
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @OPERAMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco
>===== Original Message From P. =====
>Recently, I have seen Chicho (the shooting star of Cosmotango) in
>Paris, dancing with a single partner (I don't know her and for sure,
>nobody else invited her ...). I hardly trusted my eyes, it is
>difficult to describe. It was just perfect, flawless and enormously
>fast. And by and large I even liked his interpretation of the music.
>
>However, what I felt was that his partner (a remarkable dancer) was so
>busy that it really was one-way communication: She executes his lead,
>period. Complete submission. Her body extends his, this is all she
>cares about. No room for her personality.
Since this was a private reply to my posting, I don't want to reveal this
person's name without permission. But it really promts me to explore this
subject further.
The most likely woman that Chicho was dancing with is Lucia - his new partner.
Lucia was Fabian's partner at last year's CITA. She is very young and very
talented, which leads me to believe that she has a lot ahead of her in terms
of learning how to express her personality in the dance. Maybe it's easier for
old veterans like Gavito who have lived through many experiences to channel
deep emotions into their performances. But I think it's unfair to expect the
same of very young dancers, such as Chicho and Lucia.
Also, I think that since a woman is always following, it's up to her partner
to allow her to express herself. If you were fortunate enough to witness
Fabian Salas dancing with Lorena Ermocida to "Recuerdo" about 4 or 5 years
ago, when they were partners, they could bring you to tears. And without any
dramatic poses and such. Now Lorena dances with Osvaldo Zotto, and they are
remarkable together. Osvaldo is so different from Fabian, yet Lorena can dance
with either of them and still look spectacular. But she wasn't this good right
away. Artistically, I mean. She was perfect technically always. She's been
working very hard for years to improve herself and to grow as a performer, and
continues to do so now. So, give the young kids some time to grow. We'll see
how they develop in the next 5 to 10 years.
I think that's what make this dance so incredible, that there is so much depth
to it that people from vastly different backgrounds can find so much that
appeals to them and yet often totally disagree on what it is that they like
about the Tango.
Silvia.
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:40:12 -0500
From: Enrico Massetti <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Tango music
Tom:
> Knowledge and familiarity with the music is so essential to argentine
> tango, yet outside of its birthplace people are so unfamiliar with
> it.
Tom,
There is a way to get more familiar with tango music, in addition of
getting 100 CDs and playing them all day long:
The Tango Congress of Miami Beach (Jorge Nel's congress, May 1-6)
has 2 sections on music:
<quoting from the program>
"Components of music and dance" Seminar focusing on topics such
as the relationship between music and dance, musical theory; study
of rhythm (melody, harmony of tango, milonga and vals); will explore
significance of flourishes, flares and comprehensive study of most
historically relevant tango orchestras and the impact of their musical
characteristics in historical context.
"Musical interpretation" Play a musical instrument? Bring it to class
and learn to play the Argentine tango.
(I think the two sections are done by )Ramiro Giglioty, best known for
his development of the "Musical seminar for tango dancers".
He specializes in teaching the musical elements necessary to
acquire freedom of expression and precision in the interpretation
of tango.
<end of quote>
I am thinking of going to some of these classes, does anybody know
Ramiro and can comment on his teaching of tango music, considering
that the only instrument that I play is the CD player?
TIA,
Enrico
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:50:58 -0500
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco
Original Message-----
From: Silvia Borelli <silvia.borelli @operamail.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 2:38 PM
>>===== Original Message From P. =====
>>Recently, I have seen Chicho (the shooting star of Cosmotango) in
>>Paris, dancing with a single partner (I don't know her and for sure,
>>nobody else invited her ...). I hardly trusted my eyes, it is
>>difficult to describe. It was just perfect, flawless and enormously
>>fast. And by and large I even liked his interpretation of the music.
>>
>>However, what I felt was that his partner (a remarkable dancer) was so
>>busy that it really was one-way communication: She executes his lead,
>>period. Complete submission. Her body extends his, this is all she
>>cares about. No room for her personality.
[ stuff deleted ]
> She was perfect technically always. She's been
>working very hard for years to improve herself and to grow as a
performer, and
>continues to do so now. So, give the young kids some time to grow.
We'll see
>how they develop in the next 5 to 10 years.
>
But, is it true or not that he does not give enough
"space" (in terms of time) for her to express herself?
The moves seem so quick -- as far as I have seen--
there seems to be only room for reflex action...May
be in a few years Chico himself could(if he wanted to--
but may be things are perfect as is) allow his partner
to express herself more.
rajan.
>Silvia.
>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:47:41 -0600
From: "A.T." <tangostud @MOST-WANTED.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango music
Enrico writes:
"I am thinking of going to some of these classes, does anybody know
Ramiro and can comment on his teaching of tango music, considering
that the only instrument that I play is the CD player?"
Never heard of Ramiro, but suggest that you attend the other Fantastic
Miami Congress where, if you are lucky, the "living legend" will teach a
course in how to use the "CD player" musical instrument. The same way he
taught the DJ prior to his final "commanding" performance last year. Of
course, the official video does not include that valuable lesson, but I can
offer you a bootleg, full-length version of the unforgettable evening.
Yours truly,
Al (A.T.).
_____________________________________________
Free email with personality! Over 200 domains!
http://www.MyOwnEmail.com
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:37:51 -0800
From: Sramana Mitra <sramana.mitra @UUMA.COM>
Subject: Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco
Silvia,
> continues to do so now. So, give the young kids some time to grow. We'll see
> how they develop in the next 5 to 10 years.
>
> I think that's what make this dance so incredible, that there is so much depth
> to it that people from vastly different backgrounds can find so much that
> appeals to them and yet often totally disagree on what it is that they like
> about the Tango.
Yes, I always give people chances, and it is always a pleasure to see
people grow,
address their past foibles, inadequacies, errors, deficiencies. Oscar
Wilde's
Ideal Husband had a beautiful line: It is the imperfect, not the
perfect, who has
need for love.
Fabian came to San Francisco 2 years back. He was unbelievably difficult
to deal with,
taking all sorts of liberties during private lessons, and making a
veritable fool of
himself. But I watch him now, and he has matured, seems like he is much
more dignified.
So growth not just as a performer, but as a person. THAT is very
refreshing & rewarding
to observe.
Tango is deeply integrated into our lives today for those of us who have
made it such a
sincere priority. It puts us through waves of different types of
emotions, relationships,
contexts. And we muddle along.
As long as that movement is in a general direction of growth and towards
something better
than the point of reference, it is a very interesting journey. Going
backwards is no fun...
So long!
Sramana
--
Sramana Mitra
President & CEO
sramana @uuma.com
415-905-5566 x209 voice
408-602-8914 cell
415-905-5560 fax
Win $5,000 in designer clothing at http://www.uuma.com - sign up today!
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:37:52 EST
From: Richard deSousa <M1APORT @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga CD
Giuseppe (Blanco):
Thank you for your response to my inquiry about "Milonga de Noveciento".
I tried to send you a "thank you" to your email address but it bounced back
as undeliverable.
Rich deSousa
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:04:07 -0500
From: aaanetserv <enrico @AAANETSERV.COM>
Subject: Re: Fabian Salas in San Francisco
> >===== Original Message From P. =====
> >Recently, I have seen Chicho (the shooting star of Cosmotango) in
> >Paris, dancing with a single partner (I don't know her and for sure,
> >nobody else invited her ...).
In our town, during a milonga, Metin danced with two of our student ladies,
it was a fun, and fun-tastic dance, how he could manage to make both of
them to look beautiful. We all appreciated it. It was hardly emotional,
though. How could have been, the dancing triangle?
Henry Littlemass
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:54:30 -0700
From: Chas Gale <Chuck.Gale @IHSENERGY.COM>
Subject: asking men to dance
I tried to ignore this thread but there were a few comments that concerned me.
One was addressed. That being the ridiculous notion that a man had not the right
to decline an offer to dance from a women. Thanks to those (men AND women) who
took exception to this absurd position.
I didn't save the message but early in this thread Naomi seemed not to
appreciate any "excuses" from a man declining her a dance. Whether he needed a
rest or "whatever" reason, she did not want to hear. The answer is no and I
don't care why; she wrote. Naomi, if one leads like a man (something more men
should try) one uses a lot of energy. One needs an occasional rest. A women in
my community once declined my offer because; "My ankle is bothering me". I
walked directly back to my seat, turned to sit and before my butt hit the seat
noticed she was dancing the very same tune. I agree that in this case, no excuse
would have been better than a false one. I hope that the excuses offered you are
truthful ones. If not, you, as I will have to deal with it. In the meantime,
should I ever need to decline your offer to dance I will spear your acute
sensitivities by refraining from offering any lame excuses but simply and
bluntly say, No. Any other woman who prefers this arrangement by all means let
me know.
- Carol Shepard wrote -
If a woman asks 50 men to dance and dances with all 50, she looks
like a "party girl" and there are suggestions of promiscuity in her
character.
Carol, Please take my word as a long time member of the boys club that this is
not true. I know, at least based on my observations from the outside, that girls
can be cruel to each other. Emotional cruelty doesn't work with boys. We don't
know how to handle it. One runs a serious risk of getting ones clock dusted.
Boys give wedgies. Girls tease each other into eating disorders. Ask and dance
with 50, or 150 men. Virtually no man will judge you for it.
- Carol also wrote -
I very much agree that there is an absolute right to say no to a dance
for whatever reason, but it's very socially poor to say no and then
accept or pursue another for the same dance.
Make up your mind. What if I declined your offer specifically in order to
"pursue another for the same dance"? What if I'd been waiting all night for that
person to be free? Shall I sacrifice my desire for yours? If so, I HAVE lost the
right to say no. If not, should I say "No thank you, I've been waiting to dance
with that person all night."? Or should I, as Naomi prefers offer no reason and
just say "No."?
This whole issue got very complicated and I think I know why. We live in
different cultures, boys and girls. Ladies please! Of course! Ask us to dance.
The vast majority of us love it. It should not need saying. Never feel as I
heard a women in our community say more than once, "I won't lower myself to ask
a man to dance". I am not lowered by asking you to dance. You should not feel
lowered by asking me. JUST REMEMBER THIS; When doing so you have stepped into my
culture. You are seeing the world, at least the social dance world from my
perspective. DON'T expect it to look or feel like yours. No man with even half a
brain would claim to understand your culture beyond a superficial level. I've
been told all my life that you, as a woman, have a greater capacity for
understanding mine. Embrace the opportunity to apply that understanding. Short
of that, just understand that you don't understand.
Chas Gale, Denver, CO
PS, Eve calls out to God "Lord, I have a problem!"
"What's the problem, Eve?"
"Lord, I know you've created me and have
provided this beautiful
garden and all of these wonderful animals,
and that hilarious comedic snake, but
I'm just not happy."
"Why is that, Eve?" came the reply from above.
"Lord, I am lonely. And I'm sick to death
of apples."
"Well, Eve, in that case, I have a solution.
I shall create a man for you."
"What's a 'man,' Lord?"
"This man will be a flawed creature, with
aggressive tendencies, an enormous ego and an
inability to empathize or listen to you properly.
All in all, he'll give you a hard time.
But, he'll be bigger, faster and
more muscular than you.
He'll also need your advice to think
properly. He'll be really good at fighting and
kicking a ball about, hunting fleet-footed
ruminants, and not altogether bad in the sack."
"Sounds great," says Eve, with an ironically
raised eyebrow.
"What's the catch, Lord?"
"Yeah, well ... you can have him on one
condition,"
"What's that, Lord?"
"You'll have to let him believe that I made
him first."
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:27:09 EST
From: Erik Grandmass <MassettiE @AOL.COM>
Subject: nuevo tango, old tango - new steps, old steps - same people
>>===== Original Message From Sramana Mitra <sramana.mitra @UUMA.COM>
>>Hi!
>>It always leaves me wondering, however, why that extraordinary technical
>>ability is not matched with the essence of the tango - the intimacy
>>and the emotion that someone like a Gavito captures.
>
>Maybe you are wondering because what you saw was not a fake that professional
>stage dancers are used to exhibiting on a nightly basis. You don't really
>think that all that drama and passion that Gavito and Marcela demonstrate is
>real? Maybe all you saw was two friends, who rarely work together, having
fun,
>improvising, just as they used to doing it at Cochabamba 444.
Gavito never fails to say, during his workshops that there is a distinction
between "show tango" and "social tango": "We sell tickets"....
Both Fabian and Cecilia are able to have the same kind of feelings Gavito
shows, I personaly danced with Cecilia and she was superb!
Is it about "steps" and not "people"? Why does Gavito dance traditional
tango steps when is on the job of "selling tango show tickets"? Do you think
he is unable to dance the "new tango" steps? Or can he fake it much easier
when he has an indigestion, or headhacke, or any other physical or mental
status that is not in line with the "passion" the clients of his show are
expecting?
Why are you dancing tango? To dance your feelings? If so, and your feelings
are
of friendship and joy for your partner I believe there is nothing wrong with
"new tango".
Do you want to experience, or express passion? I think you should probably
stick to traditional tango.
Gutten Tango,
Erik Grandmass
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:24:16 -0800
From: Sramana Mitra <sramana.mitra @UUMA.COM>
Subject: Msg from Galina about Fabian
> Silvia and Sramana,
>
> My name is Galina and I read your postings on Tango-L. I am not a
> subscriber and can only read. Thank you so much for sharing your
> thoughts with us. I was at Broadway on Sunday and had exactly the same
> reaction as Sramana. I also saw Fabian performing two
> dances with Claudia Lissette about a week ago. The performance left us
> speechless and with tears in our eyes.
>
> Hope to meet you one day.
> Galina Rumennik
> 415-456-6363 home
> 510-669-4148 work
> waveg @yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:34:06 +0800
From: Juan Rando <juan @STARWON.COM.AU>
Subject: An old argument - Tango Nuevo
In offering an opinion on the question of newer style of Tango versus
older styles, I'll tell a story (briefly) of my journey to discover
Tango.
Being from Perth, Western Australia, there was little opportunity 4
years ago to receive any sort of professional instruction in Argentine
Tango. I had an opportunity to sample this dance from those who dabbled
locally, but soon found myself obsessed. Prior to this I was a
ballroom/swing/hip-hop dancer, but found myself prepared to pursue this
new style no matter what.
Perth, is lucky enough to be the breeding ground for some of the World's
best ballroom dancers, and in that regard I was spoilt by constantly
being exposed to professionalism in the dance industry, with individuals
who were very knowledgeable about the dynamics of two bodies moving
together.
And so I set off to discover Tango, first in Argentina, California, and
finally in Miami for a total of 16 months. Through this period of time,
I came across many instructors. The one frustration I had, was the
constant feeling that many of the leads that were being taught, and
other techniques were being 'made up' so to speak. They were crude,
sometimes brutal, and often awkward. Furthermore, various patterns of
steps seemed to have no real lead other than practising with a partner
you knew until you knew it by rote. I found it frustrating,
particularly as you move through different parts of world, and everyone
has their own steps, with no common base to lead from.
Where I found the most satisfaction was amongst those instructors who
were professional ballroom dancers who had turned to Argentine Tango.
Their perceptions of leading and following made so much more sense, and
always worked more gracefully. Miami proved to be a great learning
environment, as I was exposed to the musicality expressed by the
Argentinians who taught locally, but had the technicality that is
offered by a 100 years of ballroom development throughout the world.
Then came this concept of Tango Nuevo. I thought I'd check it out.
What I see there is simply the application of a consistent set of rules
for dancing, many of which are familiar to ballroom dancers. Which is
not surprising considering the constant exposure the Argentine Dancers
are now having to ballroom dances.
To see this development of technique most graphically, watch the leading
technique taught by Osvaldo Zotto on his old tapes then take a lesson
from him. What he teaches now in person, is contradictory to what he
teaches on those tapes. That's not a shot at him, because even the best
dancers find new and better ways to do things, and those tapes are at
least 5 years old.
Juan Rando
The Tango Salon
Western Australia
The rules of dance expressed by this style of dance don't make you dance
further away or less passionately. That's the choice made by the
applicator of those rules. ANyone who chooses to ignore Tango Nuevo (I
really hate that label), choosed to ignore some common rule that
everyone can dance by. I'm yet to see any other instructors come up
with a more elegant system of rules yet.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 8 Feb 2000 to 9 Feb 2000 (#2000-39)
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