The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 18 Apr 2000
to 19 Apr 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 18 Apr 2000 to 19 Apr 2000 (#2000-106)
There are 12 messages totalling 461 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Competitions and live and let live.
2. line of dance (5)
3. Awareness of others
4. LOD (2)
5. teaching line of dance
6. Competitions and Randy our Friend
7. Orquesta de Tango in N.Y.
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:41:54 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Competitions and live and let live.
I find the irony hard to miss(I can not even imagine I would be the
first):
competitions are in general not about live and let live but about
survival of the fittest.
rajan.
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:51:18 -0700
From: Melville Fox <moby_fox @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: line of dance
>ramiro garcia wrote:
>
>I have danced in relatively spacious venues with
>intenmperate, inconsiderate leaders racing across the
>LOD, others indulging in a more subdued sort of
>brownian motion, bouncing randomly in every which
way,
>wandering around the room in a random walk.
Yes, Ramiro, I know what you mean! There are too many
reckless tangueros darting across the line of dance
without warning, blind to the flow of traffic on the
dance floor. Then there are the snails that practice
their giros and self-absorbed decorative movements in
the line of dance, also blocking the flow along the
line of dance. Why don't more teachers instruct their
students that the center of the floor is for
stationary figures and the outside of the floor is
reserved for progression?
>I have also danced in fairly crowded places where
>people were respectful of the line of dance, they
were
>aware of space, no wild boleos or giant molinetes
when
>there was no room for them.
I don't think the rude dancing is necessarily
correlated with spacious venues and the polite dancing
with crowding. I think it is the skill level of the
dancers and the type of instructors they've had that
mostly determines their adherence to the line of dance
and appropriate use of figures. If anything, it seems
open dance floors are more forgiving of erratic
movement and crowding exacerbates the problem, so
that, in my experience, the crowded dance floor is
usually more stressful.
>That was a great experience. You find yourself
dancing
>not just with your partner, but with everyone else in
>the room. All are aware of each other, all connected,
>all caring about each other's space and well being.
This must be Nirvana. Tell me where this is so I can
find it. ... However, I believe tango is too
individualistic to expect such a noble community
feeling. If tango is a connection between me and my
partner, I will focus on that and the unique
experience it brings. I don't want to share the same
feelings with everyone else in the room. If I dance in
synchrony with everyone else in the room, this is
stage choreography. I may want to improvise and break
away from the harmony of the flock. But, OK, each
tanguero's experience is their own and one of the
great things about tango is that you can create your
own dance experience, as you wish.
Mel Fox
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:44:43 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: line of dance
I can't help to laugh at the irony of the ongoing LOD discussion. Some are
decrying the lack of "politeness" of some dancers while others lament the
lack of training about the LOD and inability/unwillingness of some dancers
to move along the LOD to be conscious of everybody else on the floor.
This is all good and fine but what about another side of tango? Many have
opined in this forum about the ineffable quality of tango, it's very
"private" quality. How tango is totally introspective and only about the man
and woman dancing. Remember, tango is only "pure" when nobody else is
considered but your partner and your "feelings" ;-) Why should anybody care
or even observe anything so obviously external as the LOD? Perhaps only the
truest and "purest" tango dancers are those who totally ignore everything
but their (and their partner's) dance? Maybe all those giros and stationary
figures are the "purest" expression of tango. Could it be that all those
others dancing in unison with everybody else and observing LODs, etc. are
too focused on external things and other people. Not at all what tango is
all about?
Of course, I don't believe this at all. IMHO, one should always be aware and
considerate of others on and off the dance floor. The size of the floor and
the crowd do not contribute to any particular style of dance but it can
aggravate the problems. As far as I know, every teacher I've taken from and
every teacher I've spoken to, stress the importance of dancing in the CCW
direction, moving along and staying in the edges of the dance floor. We
teach this all the time and whenever we explain or teach any steps,
movements or techniques, we *always* consider and observe the line of dance.
We never teach a figure without making sure that it conserves the LOD and we
stress the importance of dancing in the line of dance. The same is true for
moving along the floor as the flow allows. This is also an important part of
what we teach. Our students are always instructed to make sure that they are
not holding up the other dancers or bumping into the people in front of
them.
I think that the greatest single problem is the excessive use of back steps.
Too many people actually will dance against the LOD! Many times the leaders
will take one or often more steps backwards (a notable few will actually
dance forward against the LOD) without any regard of whoever might be behind
them. Good dancers do not go backwards against the line of dance. It is OK
and often necessary to stop and dance in one place but it is always
problematic to dance backwards (unless one has a lot of room). As somebody
already said, tango is essentially an individualistic dance and it's essence
is introspective, add to this a little bit of selfishness and you have a
perfect recipe for dance floor problems. I always "try" to dance for the
ones behind me as I wish the ones ahead of me would do for me ;-)
Smooth dancing to all,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:14:36 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: line of dance
I agree with Manuel, most or nearly all professors instruct their
students to follow the line of dance. Many instructors also teach the
8CB/dbs (eight count basic with dreaded back step) as the basic step
of tango. The majority of tango videos rely on the 8CB/dbs--either
teaching it or using it as a pedagogic device. The very first step
that many couples learn in their quest to become tango dancers goes
against the line of dance.
I think to some extent that avoiding use of the 8CB/dbs prevents
problems with the line of dance, but it is not foolproof. Susan and I
do not teach the 8CB/dbs as a building block step of tango. We start
by teaching walking in the line of dance and then walking to the
cross. Then we introduce a forward ocho. Then we introduce the
salida (with a weight shift instead of back step), and then a
resolution. We then teach the salida with a back step as an option
that should be used only when it is helpful for navigational purposes.
I mention this background because a few years ago, I stopped one of
our relatively new students who was disturbing the other dancers at
our practice by repeatedly executing the 8CB/dbs with a large backward
step. I asked him where he learned to do the step. I was surprised
to hear him tell me that he had learned it from me, particularly when
we had stressed its sparing use.
In addition, I have seen visiting dancers completely disregard the
line of dance and move forward against the grain at our practica, even
though I know that a strict line of dance is observed at milongas in
their own cities, and the professors they study with always show the
greatest regard for the line of dance when I have seen them dancing at
milongas.
I have heard a story that there was a person used to give out
citations fro reckless dancing at her milonga. If problems with line
of dance are a prevalent as they have been discussed on this forum,
maybe those of us who organize practicas and milongas should print up
our own citation books. ;-)
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:36:44 +0200
From: "Christoph J.W. Schmees" <cjws @GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: line of dance
My two cents:
# It is as in real life: Everyone is torn between the individual
and the social existrence.
You want to express yourself, communicate only with your dancing
partner, and so forth.
At the same time, provided you are not dancing on the moon, you
find yourself in a social context and have to obey its rules to a
certain extent. This conflict has to be resolved every single
second. At times it can be a very thin line you have to walk on,
particularly for the leader.
# It is not only LOD. Perhaps more important is to be aware of
the rest of the pack. I often see collisions caused by plain
blindness. At least the men (and leading women as well) lead as
if they were blind. They just don't look.
And the leader has to look where he is stepping or where he is
leading the wife, regarless of in LOD or against it or to the
side. Some seem to think that keeping an eye open is not
necessary when moving in the LOD.
Ok, it doesn't hurt me so much if she hits someone or something
or is hit by someone, does it ;-)?
What I love the most is being trapped between a couple coming to
me from the front (against theLOD), whithout looking of course,
and another couple approaching from the back, in LOD but not
looking either. That's what I call fun...
cu,
Christoph
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:28:03 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Awareness of others
I concur with Stephen and Manuel and others regarding line of dance although
I respectfully disagree with Melville that the center is where more complex
or stationary figures should be done. (One milonguero I know says the center
of the room is where the fools and showoffs dance). It is OK to do them if
there is space and it doesn't intrude or interrupt the flow but again that is
usually misjudged. Most of us who teach always stress the importance of
sensitivity to others in the line of dance. It is not necessarily the fault
of the teachers (except for those who teach the back step first perhaps) but
seems to be more a by-product of leaders with fragile egos who just cannot
bear blending in with the flow or who cannot do steps except in the exact
pattern they learned it. You can usually spot them. They are the ones who
either watch themselves in the mirrors or are watching to see who is
observing them or are too busy watching their feet to notice that there are
other people. For all their talk about the intimacy of this dance, their
partners are just props for them.
I am always amazed at dancers who accumulate more and more steps and figures
but never seem to improve their dancing.
I think another problem is that many people don't seem to distinguish between
a milonga and a practice (or worse, between a milonga and a stage). The
milonga is not the place to practice and work on steps. One should do that in
the practices and when they have mastered a step do it at the milongas. Don't
make the rest of the dancers wait while you labor through your latest new
pattern. And even if you have mastered it, don't do it if there is no room.
Often on a crowded floor there is nothing a leader can do except avoid other
dancers. The best dancers are the ones who do that with style and grace.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:53:48 +0200
From: Raimund Schlie <Raimund_Schlie @T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: LOD
Hi List,
we Central-Europeans have to deal with the nonexisting respect for LOD
in our milongas. But, as some of the list-members already wrote, the
degree of disrespect varies from place to place. It depends on who is
running the place, whether tourists show up and so on. Thus we created a
measurment which allows everybody to calculate the average risk of
getting bumped. It4s called "BPR" (=bumps per round) and it is based on
observations and counts of experienced dancers. There is no difference
made of the quality of the bump, may it be a gentle one or even a bloody
encounter. Hopefully and on the long run the salons will be better
assorted and everybody knows well what he or she has to expect.
Maybe one day we4ll find an international rating system.
Saludos
Raimund Schlie
--
__________________________
Raimund Schlie
Rembrandtstr.18
D-12157 Berlin
fon +49 (030) 85 60 34 15
fax +49 (030) 85 60 43 56
Raimund_Schlie @t-online.de
__________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:08:10 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: LOD
Raimund Schlie proposed:
>a measurment which allows everybody to calculate the average risk of
>getting bumped. It's called "BPR" (=bumps per round) and it is based on
>observations and counts of experienced dancers.
I am concerned that naive use of this measurement would eventually
evolve into competitions that would be administered by the ballroom
dance community. Because ballroom events are typically less
crowded than milongas, the ballroom events would have a lower BPR.
Hence, the BPR should be adjusted for crowding, possibly by
dividing by the number of couples per square meter. ;-)
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:04:27 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: line of dance
Greetings friends,
Christoph wrote:
> I often see collisions caused by plain
> blindness. At least the men (and leading women as well)
> lead as if they were blind. They just don't look.
> And the leader has to look where he is stepping or where he > is leading ...
For some, it's their fault. However, I'm sure most of us have
encountered followers who choose to press their foreheads or cheeks
against their leader's face or head. It's an affectation of
inexperienced followers who don't recognize the ill effects of holding
the head off-axis, in my opinion. When these followers are nearly as
tall as or of equal height to the leader, then the unfortunate leader
can be completely blind "to starboard". This is difficult even in an
orderly milonga.
Three thoughts. (a) I think it's OK to tell a beginner that you can't
see well enough and ask her for a little space (relief?). (b) When
another leader is blinded by a tall follower, you can often recognize
this and adjust for that couple. (c) Don't lead where you can't see -
if she wants to blind your right side [read: treat you like a prop ;-)
], I suggest that you walk her in a narrow path, try to stay on the very
perimeter, and use the occasional left giro to see what's happening
around you.
Of course, sometimes tall followers are difficult to see around even
when they are beautifully on-axis. Hopefully then, there is adequate
space that you can turn her at will and really enjoy yourself.
As for friendly, honest, light face contact - of course it's delightful!
...as long as it's unaffected and she understands the consequences to
the leading.
my $.02 with warm regards,
Frank in Minneapolis
_____________________________________________________________
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:41:18 +0000
From: Felix Delgado <felixmilonguero @JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: teaching line of dance
On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:44:43 +0100 white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
writes:
> As far as I know, every teacher I've taken from and every teacher
> I've spoken to, stress the importance of dancing in the CCW
> direction, moving along and staying in the edges of the dance floor.
This has been my experience, too, but for a while I was attending
milongas at a dance studio where none of the dancers seemed to observe
the line of dance, including the instructors. The instructors and
students seemed to do only circular or non-progressive figures, even
though the dance floor was large enough for progressive movements. The
instructors never seemed to collide with any one on the floor, but many
of the students appeared to have no predictable direction of movement and
were the cause of numerous collisions and near collisions. [Maybe if I
had taken their classes and memorized their step sequences I would have
been safer. :-) ] There's probably nothing wrong with emphasizing
circular figures as a style of tango, but the unpredictability of
movement on this dance floor led me to find another place to dance tango.
Maybe this place was unusual, but from some of the comments on the list,
I suspect this teaching philosophy is not unique.
Felix
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Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:22:40 EDT
From: Randy Pittman <MailAlive @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Competitions and Randy our Friend
Hi Jon y Judy, Milongueros y Tangueras;
No I've not been offended, but as you enjoy some spirted debates, so do I.
This has been an enjoyable debate without vicious attacks. Maybe this could
start a new trend. Friends messing with each other and hugging and embracing
after the dust settles. I was attempting some humor, I love to get smiles
from any and all that meet everyday of my life.
Lydia and I look forward to seeing you in Miami.
Tango Forever
Randy
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:29:49 EDT
From: David Alsina <TransTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Orquesta de Tango in N.Y.
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 18 Apr 2000 to 19 Apr 2000 (#2000-106)
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