The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 4 Apr 2000
to 5 Apr 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 03:00:45 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 4 Apr 2000 to 5 Apr 2000 (#2000-92)
There are 7 messages totalling 320 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Nostalgia and tango (4)
2. The economy (2)
3. the economy
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:29:47 -0400
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Nostalgia and tango
Lisa Battan wrote:
"Also, I have heard the opinion that the nostalgia of immigrants for their
home countries and cultures is the source of much of the nostalgia of tango.
Anyone care to expand on this (or contradict it)?"
My opinion, others might have different ideas.
During one hundred years 1815 - 1914 (defeat of Napoleon to WW2) 60 million
people left Europe; half of them went to the USA (30 Million), the other
half went to the rest of the world but mostly to Canada, Argentina and
Australia.
The European man has his own personality, which has to interact with the
environment of his new home. From this interaction a new man emerges, one
with a new personality; he becomes then an American, a Canadian, an
Argentinean or an Australian. The melancholic temperament is an Argentinean
trait.
Tango originated from an interaction of cultures, European (music from
Spain-tango Andaluz), African ( black music that migrated from Africa, to
Spain, to Cuba and then to Buenos Aires,(the Habanera), Black dances
(Candombe) and finally Argentinean Folklore music ( the Milonga). From this
interaction at the end of last century emerged Tango.
Tango initially was very happy, upbeat, written in 2/2 notation, closer to
Milonga; this initial temperament changed when the flute was replaced by the
bandoneon, the music became slower and finally was written in 4/4 notation.
Now tango acquired a melancholic feeling; this obviously adjusted better to
the National Idiosyncrasy. At this time musicians, composers and writers and
lyricists were Argentinean, at least the first generation Argentinean. If
they learned from their parents how to be nostalgic, this trait was here to
stay for good. Argentineans never adapted very well to living abroad. They
have a chronic longing for their mother country. This is present in the
lyrics of many tangos.
It is about the man that after losing his roots discovers that returning to
his sources is his only hope.
"Anclao in Paris" is a typical example of this.
Nostalgia for something lost is a recurrent subject of tango lyrics, youth,
happiness, love, etc.
"Volver" (to return). Or "Volvio una Noche" "She returned one Night".
This last one tells the story of the return of an old love and the
impossibility to restart.
In summary Nostalgia is an Argentinean trait.
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:07:32 -0400
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: The economy
Lisa E. Battan wrote:
"His claim that the
economies of Peru, Chile and Bolivia are worse than the Argentine economy is
highly suspect."
This has to be the best joke I read today.
The economy of Argentina has been stagnant or receding due to problems
abroad.
1- the Mexican crisis in 1995.
2- the South East Asia crisis, affected Brasil first and then Argentina.
How can these problems abroad affect the Argentinean Economy?
It is in great part due to misinformation. If Mexico devaluates its
currency; it matters very little that Argentina is on tne other side of the
continent, or that the economies of these two nations are not related. The
misinformed investor withdraws his money from the Argentinean Market. This
is done at rate of 8-9 billion dollars per day. Next the Argentineans feel
panic and start sending their deposits abroad. The country goes into
difficult times. Culprit the 'Global Economy'.
Argentina at its present button, has a GNP per capita (gross national
product per capita), about 2 to 10 times bigger than that of any Latin
American country. Salaries are here 2 to 10 times higher, they correlate
with the GNP. This explains why people migrate this way and no the other way
around.
For more information you may see the World Bank Statistics.
Manuel said some time ago, Argentina is becoming like Mexico and other South
American Countries.
I think that the opposite is true, due to fast developing trends in Latin
America, Mexico or Chile are becoming like Argentina.
Is all this about tango??? I am not sure.:-)
Chile has a large Retirement Fund that must be invested in very low risk
enterprises; they found that there is nothing safer than investing in
Argentinean Companies producing and transporting energy or in supermarkets
in our cities.
We thank them for trustig our economy.
The good news, the economy is finally turning around.We had several months
of increase in industrial output.
Another good thing, Argentina never turned back our brothers from Latin
America in need; not even during our worst times.
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:04:20 +0100
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: The economy
Original Message -----
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
> Manuel said some time ago, Argentina is becoming like Mexico and other
South
> American Countries.
> I think that the opposite is true, due to fast developing trends in Latin
> America, Mexico or Chile are becoming like Argentina.
> Is all this about tango??? I am not sure.:-)
What I said was that in the context of the increase in crime, Bs As appears
to be taking the character of Mexico DF, Rio de Janeiro, etc. As far as the
topics that Sergios addresses (mainly economic development) I do not have
enough knowledge to opine comfortably. I do however know that the Chilean
economy seems to be stronger and more stable than the Argentinean
counterpart. I do know also (my job gives me first hand knowledge) that the
economies of Brazil, Argentina and Mexico are reeling and the future does
not look certain. Several contracts that I know about have been cancelled or
put on hold in these countries because of rapidly changing conditions.
As far as some of the other countries in South America, their economies are
also ailing. My poor country of Ecuador appears to have been literally,
completely looted by corrupt politicos. The conditions of my compatriots in
Ecuador are dire indeed. I think that they are worse than those in
Argentina, Mexico, Brazil, etc. Well, enough of this sad subject. Lets
discuss tango, shall we?
Manuel
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:33:08 EDT
From: "Lisa E. Battan" <Battanle @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the economy
Dear List,
Thanks for your many thoughtful responses to my recent postings - especially
the economic information. I have never conducting any thorough research on
the subject. Most of my information is anecdotal. I receive a monthly
newsletter (via email) from the American Chamber of Commerce. This
newsletter is available to any interested party. The tone of the newsletter
is almost always positive and upbeat and touts the many aspects of the
improving Argentine economy. I think much of it is propaganda aimed at
increasing U.S. investment. I am also aware that Argentina recently signed a
major mining treaty with Chile; Chile possessing more advanced technology in
that particular industry.
However, many of my Argentine clients who are seeking to work in and/or
relocate to the U.S. are doing so because of what they see as a worsening
Argentine economy. The Argentines I have met and represented tend to be very
proud of their country and heritage (even nationalistic) and really do not
want to leave except for what they see as a worsening economic situation.
Yes, we should get back to tango, but that is not to say that the economic
situation in Argentina has no effect on our experience of the tango. For
example, how many visiting Argentine teachers come to the U.S. because they
are interested in seeing us learn tango and in seeing our tango communities
grow and how many come because they can make more money here? (Not that
earning more money is a problem; but, it may be a problem if it is the sole
motivation.)
Best Regards,
Lisa
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:27:00 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nostalgia and tango
Friends,
Interesting reply by Sergio to Lisa:
snip...
> Now tango acquired a melancholic feeling; this obviously adjusted better to
> the National Idiosyncrasy. At this time musicians, composers and writers and
> lyricists were Argentinean, at least the first generation Argentinean. If
> they learned from their parents how to be nostalgic, this trait was here to
> stay for good. Argentineans never adapted very well to living abroad. They
> have a chronic longing for their mother country. This is present in the
> lyrics of many tangos.
Two difficult questions for Sergio and everybody else:
The relatively recent emergence of many talented and dedicated young
tanguero/as in Buenos Aires is a beautiful and interesting happening.
What, in your opinion, fuels THEIR passion for the tango?
Second, with the emergence of "Tango Neuvo" - dancing in the styles of
younger dancers like Gustavo, Fabian, Chicho et al. - what role do you
feel nostalgia plays in their dance expressions? [Sub-questions: Is
their "nostalgia" different from their ancestors'? The newer dance
movements adapt well to newer tango music, but are the underlying
emotions the same or different?]
...food for thought, and grand generalizations...
With respects and greetings to all,
Frank in Minneapolis
--
_____________________________________________________________
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:46:02 EDT
From: "Lisa E. Battan" <Battanle @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Nostalgia and tango
Hi List,
Yes, Sergio's response regarding nostalgia in tango was very interesting as
are Frank's questions.
I can't comment on every young Argentine dancer's passion for tango.
However, regarding the emergence of "Tango Nuevo" an Argentine tango teacher
who recently visited our community told me that he thought that Gustavo's
dancing would cause an evolution in tango music. The nature and quality of
the movement (specifically the change of axis) and the psychology of the
movement (less nostalgia?) was sufficiently distinct from the dancing of old
so as to require a different music. This tango teacher thought that it would
take ten or twenty years for the music to evolve to complement or express
this new type of movement. I inquired about how this teacher thought the
music would evolve. He couldn't answer because that is for the musicians to
decide.
Regards,
Lisa
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:09:16 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Nostalgia and tango
Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Williams <frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu>
Date: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 10:24 PM
>Second, with the emergence of "Tango Neuvo" - dancing in the styles of
>younger dancers like Gustavo, Fabian, Chicho et al. - what role do you
>feel nostalgia plays in their dance expressions? [Sub-questions: Is
>their "nostalgia" different from their ancestors'? The newer dance
>movements adapt well to newer tango music, but are the underlying
>emotions the same or different?]
First, nostalgia need not be *real*. It is like looking at a sepia
toned
photograph which need not even be ones own but still can give rise
to a sensation of nostalgia.
When one talks about tango and nostalgia for me it is like looking at
a Cartier-Bresson photograph -- plain and not so much about the
beauty of the physical aspect of the subject but the emotional ones.
That is, in his photographs, one does not always see youth but still
does see beauty. This in itself does create nostalgia -- althought I
might have nothing in common with the subject except perhaps
in my previous life.
As we now know so much about the history of tango, it was has taken
a long time for all the elements-- music and dance to come together.
The important point being that they have truly *evolved* with time
and in simple surroundings. That is, may be they work at the
perceptional level so that anyone who hears it can immediately
'recognize' it as if one had heard it before(is this the definition
of nostalgia?) without having to think too hard. It is like poetry
without rules.
Just that 'neuvo tango' is currently the way does not necessarily
mean that it will be the most popular form of dance in the future.
Reading, writing, arithmetic, and tango? -- it has the potential
to make tango less appealing to at least a few.
As for the evolution of music, as some people have already
experimented(just with musicians and not with dancers in so
far as I know), one could fit the dancers with microsensors,
a computer(with wireless connection, ofcourse :-) can gather
and analyze all the elements of the dance, and that in turn could
modify the music being played, so far example, 'la cumparista'
when Fabian Salas dances will be the music modified by
his movements as interpreted by the algorithm in the computer.
May be this is too much food for thought which is going to cause
intellectual indigestion...anyways...
rajan.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 4 Apr 2000 to 5 Apr 2000 (#2000-92)
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