The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 3 Apr 2000
to 4 Apr 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 03:00:01 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 3 Apr 2000 to 4 Apr 2000 (#2000-91)
There are 8 messages totalling 370 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Jorge Nel and the Miami congress
2. Bad memory : ooops...
3. Whose Tango (Prejudices)?
4. Whose Tango (Prejudices)?/Argentina.
5. NA-W: Metin Yazir update in SF Bay Area
6. Bad memory, or what ...?
7. Good, bad barrios - thiefs
8. Nice outdoors milonga.
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 05:31:13 EDT
From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Jorge Nel and the Miami congress
I am extremely disappointed that Jorge Nel had to cancel his Miami congress
this year. Many of the instructors who would have been there are my favorite.
But I am very happy that Jorge and Mara Carlson will now be going on the
instruction circuit.
Jorge Nel and Mara were here in Cleveland for my Tango Snow Ball and just won
everyone's hearts. There were times you almost cryed and times they made you
laugh. Their instruction was so clear and precise. After watching this couple
just once, you'll know they were mente to dance with each other partners.
Jorge and Mara made such a lasting impression on everyone here in Cleveland,
were having them back in September for the Labor Day weekend.
Good Luck to Jorge Nel and Mara Carlson on their new venture, they have all
my support
and best wishes.
I am
Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 06:58:11 -0300
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET>
Subject: Bad memory : ooops...
Hi list !
Just to make a little correction : All messages I received were private
ones ... but what I've said in last posting doesn't change a bit ...
Saludos
Jose A. Contreras
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:00:35 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Whose Tango (Prejudices)?
On another forum, Alberto Paz posted a message providing clear and
convincing evidence that tango continued in Buenos Aires throughout
the 1970s, but the presence of milongas porten~as was kept well below
the view of outsiders. Alberto reported these milongas were the
seeding grounds for some the great dancers who emerged in the next
decade.
I would like to thank both Alberto Paz and Julie Taylor for setting
the record straight.
Like many Americans, my knowledge of Argentine history is confined to
what I have read or been told. Watching the National Geographic
documentary and talking to Argentinos who are in their late 30s
through early 50s certainly gives one the impression that Argentinos
had a greatly diminished interest in tango during 1970s. Also reading
and hearing how the stage show *Tango Argentino* revived interest in
tango made it easy for an outsider to the Argentine experience, such
as myself, to misinterpret the facts.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 05:13:27 -0500
From: Lisandro Gomez <lisandro.gomez @SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Whose Tango (Prejudices)?/Argentina.
Natarajan
The Argentine tango music-dance-culture started in the 1860 and 1890 period
in which it stared as a chorographic form with out a defined music in the
Argentina and Uruguay . Low income people, new immigrants, country people
living in the outskirt of the city. they would gather to dance... with life
music, typically a guitar and a flute, may by a violin, and the music played
at that time were: Vals, Mazurca, Cuadrilla, Pericon, Paso Doble, Chotis,
Polka, Habanera, Milonga, Tarantela, and others from many origines. At
certain point people started dancing all the different music in the same
fashion in other words I would say they start to tango to them. Then the
musician observed this phenomenon and created a music that fit the people's
way to dance. and that music was the Tango and added to the repertoire. We
have to understand that it was the product of a process many years, and it
didn't happened from one day to another. The cortes and quebradas were the
most predominant things of that tango at that time as a symbol of foredoom
of expression according to Rodolfo Dinzel in the book EL TANGO-UNA DANZA in
search of freedom. I hope that will clarify something. and some eldest tales
that I heard would agree with this theory too.
Lisandro
Original Message -----
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: Whose Tango (Prejudices)?/Argentina.
> Although the threads seems to have somewhat concluded,
> I am still am curious about a few things about the centrality
> of Argentina in AT.
>
> Perhaps I am going to make several mistakes about cultures and
> countries and people about whom I dont know much -- I am sure I
> will be corrected(and I hope I will be).
>
>
> But:
>
> One of the things that I was curious when I first heard about
> tango was if there was 'tango'(music + dance) before it started
> its life in Argentina/Uruguay.
>
> The 'music' came from, lets say, Europe(flamenco):
>
> >>
> From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar>
> Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 7:37 PM
> Subject: Italians, anything to do with tango?
>
> European influences: Tango Andaluz, which was not a dance but a type of
> song, variation of canto Flamenco, coming from southern Spain.
>
>
> >>
>
>
>
>
> and dance from Africa:
>
>
> >>>
> From: kata @pitton.com <kata @pitton.com>
> Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 1:36 AM
>
> <snip>
>
> Gobello adds that there's been a lot of speculation about the origin of
> the
> word, including the not improbable theory that it comes from the
> Portuguese
> verb "tanger", from Crioulo, a dialect based on Portuguese, spoken since
> the 16th century on an island named Sa~o Tome' in the Gulf of Guinea
> (near
> the Equator, off the coast of Gabon, in west Africa). The first person
> present
> indicative (the "I" form) of "tanger" is "tango".
>
> >>>>
>
> So, if it tango existed elsewhere first guess would be Egypt(where
> Flamenco
> went at the same time or later than in Spain). But Egypt being a moslem
> country may be it would not have been in the same form since perhaps a
> man and a woman dancing close embrace in public would only entitle
> them to some form of punishment and not any kind of special joy. So, if
> could not happen in Egypt, may be it could in some country in between.
>
> At this point I thought I needed to look up the African map to see where
> exactly
> was the country 'Gabon'. There it was on the other coast of Africa
> away
> from Egypt and beyond Sahara! Anything(even a contagious disease) moving
> from Egypt to Gabon whould indeed take a long time even if anyone had
> any special reason to go from Egypt to Gabon(unlike trade and trade
> routes
> which existed between Europe and Asia even though they were far off).
>
>
> So, for the two to come together, Argentina seems to have been a
> *necessity*.
>
> Another element of the tango, 'passion', probably comes from Italy. The
> dependence
> between two people(in this case man/woman) beyond reason without any
> any commitment or gurantee by a central authority(state or church),
> i.e., passion,
> probably has its origin at the same time as the central authority
> collapsed in Italy and
> the dependece on small armed group of militia for protecting and
> enforcing *arbitrary*
> rules, i.e., mafia, began(about the time when machiavelli wrote and
> explained
> it in 'the prince'). This kind of passion for sure exists in all
> cultures as part of
> the mythology((latin/greek/indian/chinese) but is rarely a reality that
> is a regular part of the living custom (as was the case in Italy). BTW,
> the two
> seeming unrelated elements: AT tango/passion and drug cartels are still
> quite firmly there in South America.
>
> Which gives a third reason for the necessity of Argentina/Uruguay for
> the tango.
>
> An argentine child may grow up leave to europe without telling anyone
> (while
> the family members back home speculate and talk about him/her and even
> wonder if such a child is any good at all or may be even dead) and
> return
> back home with a bit of learning and some glow but that would hardly
> change
> its parentage or the heritage.
>
>
> rajan.
>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:32:46 EDT
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NA-W: Metin Yazir update in SF Bay Area
Dear list members & Joe,
Thanks for allowing to clarify this issue once for all.
Metin has green card ,therefore work permit.
We have faced this line of attack before: a threat. There were also others
who threatened me to add my name to some government investigation.
Please feel free to send our names to any three letter organization you think
is right.
In any other country the same comment would make me feel worried even though
there is no legal reason. That's why I love US.
Regarding the elegance "heels first". It is a topic we end up talking about
ever few months. Feel free to step however you wish. If you don't thinks it's
elegant, than simply don't do it. Walk on your toes, or on your hands, who
cares ?
Metin is an exceptional dancer/teacher. There are too many very good dancers
whom he trained to dispute his ability to teach.
Anyone interested: we"ll have "Tango a la Turca" festival here in NY June 3rd
with preformers from Turkey (Metin's students) and more (guest teacher Daniel
Lapadula) to prove my point. Even better: Solo Tango will tape the event for
broadcasting. Elegance proved on the dance floor...
Jak
In a message dated 00-03-27 20:48:24 EST, joe.camper @JUSTICE.COM writes:
<< On Sun, 26 March 2000, smling wrote:
> style characterized as "elegant" "similar to Gustavo Naveira
>
I did not know that Gustavo Naveira uses "heels first" in his "elegant tango
walk".
>"and who was part of the "tango love fest" at the
> White House along with Pablo Veron and Pres. Menem,
Who invited him? The infamous "tangerauna"?
Good luck with your association! Make sure to report all the income and pay
taxes! He does have a U.S. work permit, doesn't he?
Best wishes from the INS,
Joe Camper.
>>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:23:20 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck @ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bad memory, or what ...?
> Now I couldn't be more disappointed. Tango-L seems to be a "private
> chasing field", where only a few people (you know who they are) can
> express their ideas without being blamed or disqualified. Even more, it
> is necessary to be a "native English speaking" to have the right to rise
> the hand to speak.
>
> May be some of you have lost your North in this "Tango Chaos-L" , but
> let me remember you that tango is an Argentine dance, i.e. : South
> American spirit : loyalty, friendship, fun, feelings, and Castellano
> speaking ("Spanish" is just a concession for those who don't know that
> the actual name is "Castellano", not "Espaqol").
You complain that Tango-L is a "private chasing field,"
where people cannot express their ideas without getting picked
upon (for either content or not speaking perfect English), and
then you turn around and criticize people for saying "Spanish"
or "espaqol" instead of "castellano?" (Since you feel the need
to be so pedantic, I should point out that it's "castellano," not
"Castellano." It isn't capitalized, unless you're speaking in
English, in which case it's "Castillian.")
By the way, do you have a lisp?
Huck
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:36:50 EDT
From: "Lisa E. Battan" <Battanle @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Good, bad barrios - thiefs
Dear List,
As an American attorney practicing immigration law, I am greatly intrigued
and distressed by the common and almost global misperception that many of the
ills of society are caused by immigrants. The hotel owner who claimed to
Cammie Strange that foreigners commit much of the crime in Buenos Aires seems
to express this common prejudice against immigrants. His claim that the
economies of Peru, Chile and Bolivia are worse than the Argentine economy is
highly suspect. However, the grain of truth in his statement remains: poor
economic conditions drive crime. As travelers to Argentina, we may
experience this distressing effect of a weakening Argentine economy.
I am sure that much has been written about the effect of immigration to
Argentine on tango. Although I speculate, could some of the common prejudice
against immigrants inform the early Argentine's opinion that tango was not a
dance form to be embraced by middle and upper Argentine society? But,
instead was relegated to the lower classes of society many of whom may have
been recent immigrants?
Also, I have heard the opinion that the nostalgia of immigrants for their
home countries and cultures is the source of much of the nostalgia of tango.
Anyone care to expand on this (or contradict it)?
BTW, regarding Sergio's statement that Argentines may come to the U.S.
without visas, Argentines (and Canadians and nationals of many foreign
countries) may travel to U.S. as TOURISTS (tourist for business or tourists
for pleasure) without a visa using the visa waiver program. This limited
visa waiver status allows the visitor to stay only 90 days. This visa waiver
traveler cannot extend or change their status. They also cannot legally
teach tango lessons for pay.
Regards,
Lisa Battan
Boulder, Colorado
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 21:34:31 -0400
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Nice outdoors milonga.
Sunday, 9:22 PM. I just came back from a nice outdoors milonga. Place: Las
Barrancas de Belgrano, a beautiful park in Belgrano, close to Cabildo y
Juramento Streets. Right at the band stand. Sundays 4 to 6PM, tango lesson
milonguero style
level: beginners, intermediate.
6:30 PM the milonga starts, attended by very good dancers. Blue sky, 75F
temperature, great cool breze. It was a magic moment. I highly recommend it.
Thursdays tango lesson at 7:30 in the same place.
Price: Whatever you wish to pay.
End of TANGO-L Digest - 3 Apr 2000 to 4 Apr 2000 (#2000-91)
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