The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 2 Apr 2000
to 3 Apr 2000
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 03:00:04 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 2 Apr 2000 to 3 Apr 2000 (#2000-90)
There are 9 messages totalling 835 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Whose Heritage is Argentine Tango? (2)
2. Whose Tango (Prejudices)?/Argentina.
3. Good, bad barrios - thiefs
4. Fw: [tangueria] Pablo Veron
5. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Argentine_Caf=E9_society_suffers,_Financial_Times_?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?(UK)?=
6. Nationality of theives in Buenos Aires (2)
7. Bad memory : Last posting ... Hope so ...
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Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:43:24 -0600
From: Lisandro Gomez <lisandro.gomez @SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Whose Heritage is Argentine Tango?
Julie, as an Argentinean, I really appreciate your sensitiveness and your
understanding of other people's culture humanly. I think that there is a
gray area were the tango does not respond the need of the youngest, from mid
50`s to late 60's or mid 70`s approximately, and no way to dance this music
that was full of rules and restrictions even to the way to dress, how can
you dance tango in jeans. or with long hair. in running shoes. an other
music was our tango. NO WAY it was the dance of our parents representing
paradoxically the system with in the family (talking middle working class
were kids can go to High school and some to even university). A TOTALITARIAN
SYSTEM. the more they oppressed the more distant from this TANGO this kids
would stay. A new musical movement was the Tango a that time, like a
disguised Tango, el rock nacional, la musica progresiva , many manes . it
was an evolution. I am not an expert on it but. I remember Trio Manal, Vox
Dei, Los Gatos , Lito Nebia, Pescado Rabioso, Serugidan, Charly Garcia,
Baglieto and on and on. (There is even a movie, Tango Feroz)
However the Tango stayed there in the background like ready to jump on. to
content the old folks I guess, any time you will turn the radio on a Tango
will blast off. my older brother will cover his ears, I would kind of enjoy
the lyrics and find that there is a tango as an answer for most of the
things in life. or for any occasion. like we memorized the lyrics with out
thinking . by osmosis or something. perhaps when I was in my mom's tummy.
Then this big commotion from the old guys: This is not Tango, this guy is
killing the tango, this is a lack of respect for the tango music, all kind
of negative comments. then I paid attention to the music in question and
found it superb, but incredible the music was our thing, what we just needed
and that music hook me, among may others, to listen tango again with
different ears.
You know I am talking about . I don't have any special fonts that will
really mach his name, Astor Piazzolla.
We even start to apreciate other Tango singers, and they start to sing for
as. slower. different, for as ..
The Argentinean officially did not recognized Piazzolla very well, in a
national contest, a forgotten song wins the price against "Balada para un
loco" a song that every Argentinean would remember today, and once more
Tango has to go out to France to succeed.
I would like to investigate more about it, I am sure that many people in the
list including Julie can bring more accurate data of this period of time to
obtain a better analysis . This was just a conversation based on my own
experience I wouldn't remember dates or manes of the events. Gracias for
reading.
Lisandro desde Toronto
... it is not a coincidence that Lito Nevia, Baglieto and others today are
doing tango!!!
Original Message -----
From: Julie Taylor <jtaylor @RICE.EDU>
To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 11:15 PM
Subject: Whose Heritage is Argentine Tango?
> I am concerned that so sensitive a tanguero as Steve Brown would seem to
> contrast tango as a lively tradition outside of Argentina as against one
> that has been dead for periods of time within Argentina.
>
> Tango has never been dead in Argentina and Uruguay. I did my first
> research on the tango in 1967 when everyone was worried about the death of
> tango. As I pointed out in an article about that era, nothing can be dead
> when every conversation concerns its welfare. People talked constantly
> about the tango. Piazzolla was active. People fought over his relevance.
> Some defended him; some defended more traditional music; some defended a
> position in which they claimed tango was irrelevant; others with tears in
> their eyes spoke of its relevance to every single sphere of Argentine
life.
> It is true that around this time the tango was not danced by all social
> classes. My companions in the milonga in Buenos Aires today, however,
> almost always remember one family member who danced or many family
> occasions when the tango was important. They remember their fathers and
> the workers on the street who whistled tangos as they walked about the
> city. They remember their mothers singing tangos as they cooked or did
the
> wash. So people who grew up when the tango was "not danced" know the
> lyrics, they know the singers, they recognize orchestras, they have seen
> all the many films that were made about the tango over all these years
that
> the tango was supposedly dying. Some tried to dance and were picked up by
> the police of one dictatorship or another. This is not to say that all
> Argentines know all these details. But many do, and non Argentines know
> almost none of this wealth of heritage. Listen on a bus, pick up a best
> seller, look at the headlines in the papers, argue a moral point -- a
tango
> line is used, and this broad immersion in tango culture *is* shared
> throughout the culture, in the milongas and far beyond them.
>
> What does this have to do with dancing? Density. This context for the
> tango echoes in turn with historical twists and turns of human destiny in
> the form of Argentine lives. And the dance, when Argentines dance it for
> their own purposes within their own lives, has an intensity like nothing
> else. The stakes are a vulnerable, precarious identity in a country that
> was colonized several times over and remains more than ever at the mercy
of
> the whim of more powerful nations. So of course, this very whim is
> tragically important in Argentine history and Argentine minds. It makes
> sad sense that Argentines would be sensitive to foreign opinion: that is
> what their economy, their culture, and today their jobs depend on. And
> they dance this sadness at the same time that they dance lost love: just
> listen to Tristeza de la Calle Corrientes. As I have said elsewhere, for
> Argentines dancing their tango, the genre as they know it in Buenos Aires
> is different from the tango abroad in particular ways: the personal
> search is deeper, the commitment complete, the transcendence of another
> order. And the stakes are very, very high.
>
> Julie Taylor
> Professor
> Department of Anthropology
> Rice University
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:15:22 +0200
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Whose Tango (Prejudices)?/Argentina.
Although the threads seems to have somewhat concluded,
I am still am curious about a few things about the centrality
of Argentina in AT.
Perhaps I am going to make several mistakes about cultures and
countries and people about whom I dont know much -- I am sure I
will be corrected(and I hope I will be).
But:
One of the things that I was curious when I first heard about
tango was if there was 'tango'(music + dance) before it started
its life in Argentina/Uruguay.
The 'music' came from, lets say, Europe(flamenco):
>>
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @infovia.com.ar>
Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 7:37 PM
Subject: Italians, anything to do with tango?
European influences: Tango Andaluz, which was not a dance but a type of
song, variation of canto Flamenco, coming from southern Spain.
>>
and dance from Africa:
>>>
From: kata @pitton.com <kata @pitton.com>
Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 1:36 AM
<snip>
Gobello adds that there's been a lot of speculation about the origin of
the
word, including the not improbable theory that it comes from the
Portuguese
verb "tanger", from Crioulo, a dialect based on Portuguese, spoken since
the 16th century on an island named Sa~o Tome' in the Gulf of Guinea
(near
the Equator, off the coast of Gabon, in west Africa). The first person
present
indicative (the "I" form) of "tanger" is "tango".
>>>>
So, if it tango existed elsewhere first guess would be Egypt(where
Flamenco
went at the same time or later than in Spain). But Egypt being a moslem
country may be it would not have been in the same form since perhaps a
man and a woman dancing close embrace in public would only entitle
them to some form of punishment and not any kind of special joy. So, if
could not happen in Egypt, may be it could in some country in between.
At this point I thought I needed to look up the African map to see where
exactly
was the country 'Gabon'. There it was on the other coast of Africa
away
from Egypt and beyond Sahara! Anything(even a contagious disease) moving
from Egypt to Gabon whould indeed take a long time even if anyone had
any special reason to go from Egypt to Gabon(unlike trade and trade
routes
which existed between Europe and Asia even though they were far off).
So, for the two to come together, Argentina seems to have been a
*necessity*.
Another element of the tango, 'passion', probably comes from Italy. The
dependence
between two people(in this case man/woman) beyond reason without any
any commitment or gurantee by a central authority(state or church),
i.e., passion,
probably has its origin at the same time as the central authority
collapsed in Italy and
the dependece on small armed group of militia for protecting and
enforcing *arbitrary*
rules, i.e., mafia, began(about the time when machiavelli wrote and
explained
it in 'the prince'). This kind of passion for sure exists in all
cultures as part of
the mythology((latin/greek/indian/chinese) but is rarely a reality that
is a regular part of the living custom (as was the case in Italy). BTW,
the two
seeming unrelated elements: AT tango/passion and drug cartels are still
quite firmly there in South America.
Which gives a third reason for the necessity of Argentina/Uruguay for
the tango.
An argentine child may grow up leave to europe without telling anyone
(while
the family members back home speculate and talk about him/her and even
wonder if such a child is any good at all or may be even dead) and
return
back home with a bit of learning and some glow but that would hardly
change
its parentage or the heritage.
rajan.
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:34:49 +0300
From: Hayri Erenli <mhayrie @ESCORTNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Whose Heritage is Argentine Tango?
Like tango at the turn of the century, the music of Piazzolla was
initially rejected by his countrymen and had to have himself accepted
first abroad, and then would his city open up its arms. It was
precisely for this reason that Astor Piazzolla was very bitter
and unforgiving about the tango musicians of his country. During
his concert in Istanbul in July 1988, he said : "Those deaf musicians
in Buenos Aires wouldn't listen to my music. But here I am, triumphant
after all those difficult years. They will all be soon forgotten, but my
music
will be there to stay"
Hayri
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:43:01 -0400
From: Sergio Suppa <sersupa @INFOVIA.COM.AR>
Subject: Good, bad barrios - thiefs
Nitin Kibe wrote: -"How can one tell appart a good from a boa neigborhood in
Buenos Aires"
He continues:
"...The danger signs in the urban US or I daresay central London (empty
streets, groups of (young) men loitering, drunk or disorderly behaviour,
barred/broken windows, graffiti, litter, broken pavements with weeds
growing,
unkempt yards, too many liquor/"adult"/check cashing/food takeaway stores,
etc.)
did not seem to be present around the milongas in Bs As..."
Cammie said:
"Much has been written in response to my original message about the theft of
my wallet recently whiile I was in BsAs. One addition: the owner of our
hotel, which was a few blocks from Plaza de Mayo, told me that these thefts
were mainly being done by people from nearby countries with worse economies:
Peru, Chile and Bolivia. Cammie Strange, Colorado."
I think that both subjects are related to some extent.
The following explanations are made with due respect, they are supposed to
clarify a subject which we in Argentina try to avoid because it might be
tainted with some degree of prejudice.
1- The good bad barrios. Generaly speaking the South of the city is poorer
than the North.
Most places where tango activities take place are situated in the South,(San
Telmo, Barracas, La Boca, etc.).
Downtown pedestrian streets in the evenings (Forida, Lavalle, ) and other
streets are preferred by poor immigrants and their visiting relatives, also
by the other tourists from all over the world.
The Argentinean middle class person will not go there unless he/she has to,
they prefer the Barrio Norte, Santa Fe y Callao Streets, La Recoleta,
Belgrano Neighborhood, or the suburbs of Olivos, Vicente Lopez and San
Isidro. All those areas offer your choice of restaurants, discos, cafes,
stores, movies, etc.
Street selling is illegal in Argentina; most street vendors do it at their
own risk, most of them are also illegal immigrants from South America.
The city decay observed in the USA and in the UK. is not seen here yet. The
process that originates that has already started.
Big foreign companies place beautiful Malls and Shopping centers in
different areas of the city. This causes the family owned stores to have to
close their doors. Pretty soon you start seeing empty stores that cannot be
sold or rented. Some families start moving their residence to the new
subdivisions outside the city. The old beautiful downtown starts to decay.
Very sad!
The thieves and beggars. I think it is unfair to blame the poor immigrants
for something that obviously is an Argentinean problem caused by this 'new
economical phase' of our development. This has happened in the USA and in
the UK before it started here. The very poor are the ones that suffer the
most. The causes are the same, "the new global economy, the big corporations
ruling the world, making huge profits at the expense of a great social
price.The state has to become smaller, the social programs must be cut, the
laws to protect the workers must be dismissed. "We must obtain laboural
flexibility".
The Immigrants from our sisters South American Nations are, for the most
part honest, hard working people. They contribute with their sweat to the
general well-being. They help to make 'Argentinean Labor' more competitive;
since they are willing to do the jobs that nobody wants for less pay.
Because some of these immigrants are here illegally, unable to find jobs,
they appear in the news more than they used to.
The gysies coming from Romania are a chapter appart.Their women and children
'work' the streets of all our cities, selling flowers, small items, begging,
opening your taxi door, washing the windshield of cars that stop at the red
lights, etc.
They took as squaters several blocks in the southern part of the city. Their
street is called 'La calle de los milagros' (miracle street) because here
you can see that the blind throws his cane and can see, the disabled woman
with a child throws the crutches and can walk, even the crying child stops
crying. A miracle! Really! The immigration department stopped giving visas
to people from Romania for this reason but they still come via Uruguay. They
get papers from Uruguay and then they come to Argentina. They used to come
from Hungary before.
Something interesting, Argentineans and Canadians do not need visas to
travel to the USA. Chinese people with relatives in North America, take
advantage of this, they immigrate here first and eventually end up joining
their relatives in the USA.
Summary: you can find a thief in ANY neighborhood. The bad neighborhood here
do not look as bad as in the USA, Liverpool or London ....YET.
I hope I did not offend anyone. I like gypsies!`:-). Do you believe me?
Too long, I apologize.
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:07:18 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Fw: [tangueria] Pablo Veron
Dear Listeros,
My Spanish is adequate to understand this article for myself, but inadequ=
ate
to translate such a long piece for others. (My translation professor wou=
ld
be horrified, but it was a loooong time ago.....) Is there anyone on the
list who would like to do this?
I found it very interesting.
Melinda
Original Message -----
From: Rodolfo Windhausen <windha @mindspring.com>
> Dear list members:
> Dancer and choreographer Pablo Ver=F3n, who gained international fame w=
ith
the
> movie "The Tango Lesson" directed by Sally Potter, is back in Buenos Ai=
res
> to form a new dance company. He has just finished shooting another movi=
e
> with Potter and "The Cup," directed by longtime tango fan and veteran
actor
> Robert Duvall.
> For those of you who can read Spanish, here's some additional informati=
on
on
> Ver=F3n from La Naci=F3n newspaper in Buenos Aires.
> Saludos tangueros
> Rodolfo
> ---
>
> LA NACION LINE | 01.04.00 | Espectaculos
>
> La nueva lecci=F3n de Ver=F3n
>
> El bailar=EDn de "La lecci=F3n de tango" est=E1 aqu=ED para formar su p=
ropia
> compa=F1=EDa
> Despu=E9s de la pel=EDcula "La lecci=F3n de tango", que en 1996 dirigi=F3=
la
inglesa
> Sally Potter, la carrera de Pablo Ver=F3n como bailar=EDn y core=F3graf=
o tom=F3
> mayor repercusi=F3n. Despu=E9s de otras incursiones cinematogr=E1ficas =
que
> incluyen "The man who cried" (de la misma directora), junto a Johnny De=
pp
y
> Christina Ricci, y "The Cup", de Robert Duvall, Ver=F3n lleg=F3 a Bueno=
s Aires
> para buscar bailarines, armar una compa=F1=EDa de baile y estrenar un n=
uevo
> espect=E1culo "pluricultural".
> Reci=E9n llegado de Par=EDs -donde est=E1 radicado-, Ver=F3n adelant=F3=
que en el
> espect=E1culo que est=E1 por crear "el tango va a predominar, pero habr=
=E1 una
> idea m=E1s abarcadora, junto con otras disciplinas".
>
> El bailar=EDn, que fue integrante de Tango Argentino y que durante el
gobierno
> de Menem impresion=F3 a Bill Clinton en un espect=E1culo en la Casa Bla=
nca, y
> que bail=F3 en Francia en fiestas privadas dedicadas a Alain Delon y
Brigitte
> Bardot, opin=F3 que "en la Argentina se da como una negaci=F3n con el t=
ango.
> "Que no toquen a la vieja ni a la nena ni al tango". Yo quiero ponerlo =
al
> alcance de otras experiencias que s=ED tienen expresiones modernas, com=
o
jazz,
> el tap y la salsa".
>
> Ver=F3n se escuda, sin embargo, de quedar atrapado en el "tango for exp=
ort",
> abundante y exagerado en fantas=EDas, que tanto ha entusiasmado a los
> norteamericanos. Y dice: "Esa es una caricatura de la pasi=F3n.
>
> "Yo creo que se puede ser espectacular sin ser "for export" -contin=FAa=
-, en
> donde se da una sucesi=F3n de patadas dirigidas al aplauso. Claro que
tambi=E9n
> podr=EDa hacer un espect=E1culo as=ED, seleccionando, de todas las pata=
das que
> conozco, las m=E1s efectivas para asombrar al p=FAblico. Pero eso no es=
lo que
a
> m=ED me gusta."
>
>
> En el pa=EDs de Gene Kelly
>
> Pablo Ver=F3n cuenta que quer=EDa bailar tango desde los 5 a=F1os, cuan=
do vio
"una
> pel=EDcula de Gene Kelly", pero agrega que de chico "pintaba como baila=
r=EDn
> cl=E1sico hasta que viaj=E9 a los Estados Unidos, donde conoc=ED el tap=
y el
> modern jazz".
>
> "M=E1s tarde, en un viaje a Buenos Aires, en un =E1mbito oscuro de una =
milonga
> del Once, vi bailar a un tipo vestido de blanco, =A1con una cara de
criminal!,
> pero que improvisaba y llevaba bailando a una mujer como los dioses",
> agrega.
>
> As=ED fue como abandon=F3 todos los bailes anteriores, se sum=F3 a Tang=
o
Argentino
> y comenz=F3 su primera gira europea. Bail=F3 en el Folies Berg=E9re, y =
particip=F3
> en Par=EDs del espect=E1culo "Mortadela", de Alfredo Arias.
>
> Y fue en Par=EDs donde la directora de "Orlando", Sally Potter, conoci=F3=
a
> Pablo Ver=F3n. "All=ED vio el espect=E1culo y empez=F3 a tomar clases. =
En
principio
> quiso hacer un cortometraje y luego pens=F3 en una pel=EDcula chica, ha=
sta que
> finalmente pudo hacer "La lecci=F3n de tango"", cuenta.
>
> El film gan=F3 el Omb=FA de Oro en el Festival de Mar del Plata de 1996=
, y el
> British Academy Award. "Yo gan=E9 el American Coreography Award, que en=
trega
> la asociaci=F3n de Bob Fosse", agrega Ver=F3n.
>
> Despu=E9s de su participaci=F3n en el film de Sally Potter, la ductilid=
ad de
> Pablo Ver=F3n cautiv=F3 a otra realizadora inglesa, Ana Mastracchi, qui=
en
> realiz=F3 "un documental sobre mi vida, un telefilm que se est=E1 por e=
mitir
en
> China".
>
>
> Las l=E1grimas de Potter
>
> "Me gusta lo audiovisual", dice, y cuenta sobre sus otras participacion=
es
> para el cine. Potter volvi=F3 a llamarlo para el film "The Man who Crie=
d"
("El
> hombre que llora"). "Me propuso hacer el papel del hermano de Johnny De=
pp,
> que interpreta a un gitano que se enamora de una jud=EDa. Despu=E9s, co=
mo =E9l
no
> pod=EDa, estuve a punto de hacer yo el papel. Hice la prueba y sali=F3 =
bien.
> Pero finalmente acept=F3 y yo hice un baile gitano de seducci=F3n junto=
a
> Christina Ricci."
>
> "Arm=E9 un baile corto, que inclu=EDa golpes de palma en el piso. Ricci=
no es
> bailarina, pero se desenvolvi=F3 bastante bien, es una chica muy d=F3ci=
l. En
> realidad, tuvimos muy poco ensayo porque ella estaba muy ocupada con ot=
ras
> pel=EDculas."
>
> Luego, Ver=F3n tuvo un peque=F1o papel en "The Cup", el segundo film di=
rigido
> por el actor norteamericano Robert Duvall despu=E9s de "El ap=F3stol". =
Este no
> trata sobre ning=FAn hombre que quiere redimir su alma a trav=E9s de la
> religi=F3n, como esta =FAltima pel=EDcula, sino sobre el f=FAtbol en Es=
cocia. "Lo
> conoc=ED en Buenos Aires, en uno de sus tantos viajes. Le di clases de =
tango
y
> nos hicimos muy amigos."
>
> Y reitera: "Me gusta la fusi=F3n del tango con lo audiovisual. Creo que=
por
> ah=ED seguir=E1 mi camino".
>
>
> Lorena Garc=EDa
>
> Copyright =A9 2000 La Naci=F3n | Todos los derechos reservados
>
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
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>
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/tangueria/?m=3D1
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>
>
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:27:27 -0400
From: Nitin Kibe <nkibe @WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Argentine_Caf=E9_society_suffers,_Financial_Times_?=
=?iso-8859-1?Q?(UK)?=
An interesting piece, but in English....
****************************************
By Ken Warn - 1 Apr 2000 00:59GMT
The traditional caf=E9s and bars of Buenos Aires, once the centre of th=
e city's
intellectual life and glittering social scene,
have fallen on hard times. So much so that the city government has been=
forced
to step in with a $235,000 (=A3149,000)
rescue package.
Many of the establishments date from the late 19th and early 20th centu=
ries,
when Argentine wealth, fuelled by
booming agricultural exports, was at its zenith. They retain ornate int=
eriors,
with acres of imported wood panelling,
plate-glass mirrors and ironwork. The main thing they lack is customers=
.
After an exhaustive and doubtless highly enjoyable study by the Commiss=
ion for
the Protection and Promotion of the
City's Notable Caf=E9s, Bars and Billiard Halls, the Buenos Aires depa=
rtment of
culture has decided to subsidise
restoration costs for 15 establishments.
"These buildings are part of the city's cultural and architectural heri=
tage,"
said a department spokeswoman. However,
young people have turned their backs on the once-elegant caf=E9s that w=
ere the
haunts of the writer Jorge Luis Borges or
Evita Per=F3n.
Many traditional caf=E9s and bars have already closed or been converted=
into
identikit postmodern pizza parlours.
It is easy to see why young people look elsewhere. In La Ideal, a caf=E9=
and tango
hall, there are few lunchtime customers,
despite the attractions of an opulent interior little changed since the=
doors
opened in 1912. Its period fixtures include
brass-bound display cases and an astonishing wooden refrigerator. But =
poor
lighting turns the place into a gloomy
cavern. The copious wood panelling is a stranger to polish.
By teatime the pace has picked up a little, as an organist launches int=
o a
selection of toe-tapping tunes from yesteryear.
He wins enthusiastic applause from the scattering of mainly elderly cus=
tomers
and a morose-looking man drinking
what appears to be a quadruple whiskey.
La Ideal will receive the lion's share of the bailout - $126,000. But i=
ts
attempt to recover past glories may be undermined
by its deteriorating surroundings: the theatre next door has become a
pornographic cinema. Just around the corner
from La Ideal, McDonald's and Burger King are doing a roaring trade fe=
eding
young office workers, without a subsidy
in sight. "People just don't have the time to linger in the old caf=E9=
s any
more," said Maria, a secretary. "In the fast-food
joints it's bright and the food is cheap."
Not all the old caf=E9s are in trouble. The Caf=E9 Tortoni, founded in =
the 1850s,
has managed to place itself firmly on the
tourist map and become an inevitable port-of-call for visiting dignitar=
ies, such
as Hillary Clinton or King Juan Carlos of Spain.
Regular tango and jazz concerts help keep a committed local following. =
But even
the thriving Tortoni will receive
$5,000 from taxpayers to install air conditioning.
With further funds possible in a second phase of the bar bailout, Bueno=
s Aires
could rapidly become the ideal place
for a subsidised snifter.
=
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 14:36:13 -0300
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET>
Subject: Re: Nationality of theives in Buenos Aires
Wait a moment !!!
I've been silent many years reading Tango-L. But now I can't accept that comment
of an Bs.As. hotel owner saying that those robbers come from "worse economies
neighbor countries" like Chile.
About robbers : Anywhere in the world you will find people coming from
everywhere, and those can be professionals, bussiness people.... and robbers.
Argentina's neighbor countries don't have the exclusivity of robbers. As
argentina is our neighbor, I can accept that some percentage may be chilean. But
to say that most of the the robbers are chilean, peruvian and bolivian, is an
exageration with no name. I could say the same about argentinian robbers during
the summer time in our beaches ... and tell you that the greatest robber catched
in Chile was ... argentinian (for those who know some about Chile and Argentina,
he was "el loco Pepe").
About "worse economies" : I know that Argentina was (WAS) a powerful economy in
SouthAmerica. But now that is just history. Can you explain why most of the
electric companies in Argentina belong to Chilean companies? And why those
companies are managed by Chilean executives? And the same about gas companies?
And why Chilean supermarkets are the best in Bs.As.? And so... and so ...?
I can understand that Argentinians would like to be proud of their country, but
that is not a reason for nor saying the truth ...
I have lots of Argentinian friends, but this "hotel owner" has just tried to
hide Argentina's problems behind neighbor's countries "reality".
Saludos from Chile
Jose A. Contreras
Cammie Strange wrote:
> Much has been written in response to my original message about the theft of
> my wallet recently whiile I was in BsAs. One addition: the owner of our
> hotel, which was a few blocks from Plaza de Mayo, told me that these thefts
> were mainly being done by people from nearby countries with worse economies:
> Peru, Chile and Bolivia. Cammie Strange, Colorado.
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:40:36 EDT
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Nationality of theives in Buenos Aires
I too heard this from more than one portenio. I said nothing as I'm a guest
in Bs As but I could not help but remember how in the USA these same poor
immigrant people (plus Mexicans and Central Americans) are also blamed for a
lot of the crime. I guess it is easier to blame somebody else than accept
the unpalatable. While I'm sure that other South Americans in Bs As
contribute to the rise in petty theft, I'm sure that Argentineans have their
share of thieves among them. I remember years ago in Ecuador when all the
crime was blamed on Colombians (imagine my amusement when I found out that
Colombians blame Ecuadoreans for a lot of the crime in Colombia).
Obviously, poverty and despair know no boundaries. Surely poor immigrants
are sometimes reduced to begging, prostitution and thievery to survive, but
the same is true for the native populations as well. Oh yeah, the cabbies in
Bs As will also point out to you that the streewalkers are Peruvian,
Bolivian, etc. In all fairness though, one of them said "the Argentineans
ply their trade too, but do it from their apartments". Personally, I don't
believe for one moment that if suddenly all the illegal immigrants were
spirited away from Bs As, the crime would go away too.
Manuel
----Original Message Follows----
From: Cammie Strange <milonguera @DELLNET.COM>
Reply-To: Cammie Strange <milonguera @DELLNET.COM>
Subject: Nationality of theives in Buenos Aires
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 23:54:45 -0800
Much has been written in response to my original message about the theft of
my wallet recently whiile I was in BsAs. One addition: the owner of our
hotel, which was a few blocks from Plaza de Mayo, told me that these thefts
were mainly being done by people from nearby countries with worse economies:
Peru, Chile and Bolivia. Cammie Strange, Colorado.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:42:10 -0300
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9?= A. Contreras" <jcontrer @CMET.NET>
Subject: Bad memory : Last posting ... Hope so ...
Hello list!
I'd like to thank all of you for all the agreement/support e-mails I've
received, public and private, about my posting "Bad memory, or what
...?". It seems I woke up the "tango spirit" in many people who had it
sleeping. I think it is good. I think that it is possible now that the
intended aim of this list can be recovered, in benefit of tango itself,
and in benefit of the world tango community, that at the end is the
motor that moved us into this list ... don't you agree with it?
One interesting data : I received more private e-mails than public ones.
This means to me that many people are still afraid to express their
opinion here. I'd like to tell you, silent people, that I appreciate
very much your support (I didn't expect so much support), and because of
that I'll continue in this line of postings, but it would be very good
to the list to have more public postings in this line, so we could
re-define the kind of issues to be discussed here. But if you prefer to
keep your privacy, no problem, I am here representing all of you (if
you'd like so).
I'd like to see in this list postings about dancing experiences, a new
technique that you learned, a beautiful step you saw somewhere, etc. but
please, I'd like to see never again blaming postings about personal
problems, jealousy, etc... That's not good for tango, so beloved by many
of us ... may be I am too idealist, but I'd like to see this place like
I said...
I'd like to say in public to Pino : I felt at home at Pel=E9. Thanks a lo=
t
for the reception you gave to me. You are doing a great job promoting
tango in Sweden. I was amazed looking at you dancing AT. Unfortunately I
can't remember the name of your sweed partner... please give to her my
greetings and congratulations. She also dances very beautiful (and she
is very beautiful too). And please give my warmest greetings to Miguel
and Ruben, Sirpa (great lady), Anitta, Anna Bolin (the little girl from
Malmo), Sabina (the german girl), and very especially to Dorina (my best
partner in Sweden).
Finally, but not less : We have the inaugural party of "Casa del Tango"
at Santiago de Chile, next Saturday 8 by 21:00 hrs, with students
graduation, invited artists, participation of people from the
Argentina's Embassy, and so on ... Address : Vicu=F1a Mackenna 630,
Santiago. (I have no economic interest on it, just tango interest).
Everybody is welcome.
Saludos from Chile
Jose A. Contreras
End of TANGO-L Digest - 2 Apr 2000 to 3 Apr 2000 (#2000-90)
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