Tango-L mailing list archive: Digest 29 Nov 1999 to 30 Nov 1999

The Tango-L mailing list archive

Digest from 29 Nov 1999 to 30 Nov 1999

Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:00:16 -0500 Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 29 Nov 1999 to 30 Nov 1999 (#1999-77)

There are 18 messages totalling 1041 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. finding the right teacher (2) 2. Musical interpretation (5) 3. Re Right and Wrong Teachers 4. The leader as the primary interpreter of the music 5. Women "heavy" to dance with. 6. Leading Ladies (2) 7. who is leading who 8. Musical Interpretation (2) 9. Leading the Cross (was: Teaching Walking) (2) 10. Leading the cross

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:58:31 EST From: Candy Korman <Milonga @AOL.COM> Subject: Re: finding the right teacher I've also found that dancing with the students of certain teachers will give one a hint about who is providing good instruction. Once I went to a dance and a man kept instructing me verballing instead of leading -- "now you do this, now you do that." He had learned step patterns but not how to communicate with a partner. It was not a great Tango moment.

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:39:34 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois=20Bouchard?= <jean-francois.bouchard @MEQ.GOUV.QC.CA> Subject: Musical interpretation As a leader, my tango world was truly shaken last night. I was getting ready to dance a melodious (and relatively slow) tango with = a lady who is a good and energetic (and generally ornate) dancer. I know = her quite well, and I also know that I need to "listen" to her, in order = to allow for the expressiveness she is good for. I would not think of = imposing her any kind of unilateral interpretation of music, without = allowing time for her own expression. As soon as we started that first tango, I could not recognize her style, = who is normally quite lively. It struck me as awkward, especially that I = had danced with her the previous night without noticing anything special. = She was extremely heavy in her movements. Her right arm was full of = pressure. She was deliberately slowing down the rythm of the dance. Not = along some secondary rythm of the song, but seemingly along her wish to = gain as much time as she could for performing ornaments. So much that I = had to counter with excessive pressure in my own left arm and that I was = not able any more to follow the rythm the music was providing. I could not = really attempt an interpretation of the music. Her right arm was "absorbing= " whatever energy came from my leading. After that first song, she told me that I did not seem at ease. I simply = replied that I did not recognize her dancing. The second dance started, = and the situation was still the same. At that time, I even hypothesized to = myself that she could have had a few drinks in excess of her own sober = habits; but our later discussions proved me wrong: alcohol had nothing to = do there. The second dance was not more pleasant. I did not feel we were = both contributing to a common "ephemeral masterpiece of unity". Between the second and third dances, she briefly mentioned that she was = experiencing her new approach to tango, where she was entirely expressing = her own emotions. The third dance was somewhat lighter, but not different = in essence. I thanked her and we rapidly moved away from the dance floor, into a = quiet corner. Obviously, we both felt the need for a form of explanation. = I first told her that I had been very surprised by the nature of our = connection during those three dances. She told me she had decided to = impose upon me her own rythm and interpretation through her right arm. So, = that was it. My impressions were thus not mistaken at all.=20 I replied that, as a leader, I felt I had the responsibility of doing the = primary interpretation of the music and, as a consequence, I needed enough = freedom to transmit her the energy coming from that interpretation. At the = same time, this did not restrict my obligation to allow her enough freedom = for her own secondary interpretation of the music. Her point was that she = now did not agree with the principle of the primary interpretation coming = from the leader. (It should be emphasized that, in French, the words = 'leader' and 'follower' are not commonly used, only the words 'man' and = 'woman'; thus 'man' does not equate 'leader' in common tango talk). I also = added that my experience for our three dances had not been a happy one = because I had not felt we were contributing to a common pleasure. We discussed along those themes for maybe 10 minutes, but it was obvious = we both kept to our beliefs. We then parted. I felt sad and frustrated. Even more so because I had arrived a bit late = and those were my first dances in the evening. Fortunately, the following = dances with other women were quite different, and my tango joy eventually = came back.=20 I wish to share that experience, in order to get considerate reactions and = advice from list members. Before I can sort my emotions and revise my = attitudes, if needed. I hope some of you will have ideas about the sharing of tasks between = leader and follower, especially about musical interpretation. All my thanks to you for sharing your ideas Jean-Fran=E7ois BOUCHARD jean-francois.bouchard @meq.gouv.qc.ca

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:05:58 EST From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM> Subject: Re Right and Wrong Teachers A good point has been raised lately about dancers, mainly the male leaders, correcting and "teaching" their partners. Although I'm sure this will fall on mostly deaf (male) ears it brings up some important points about dance etiquette. I saw this last night at a milonga and I see it at just about every dance I attend. It always seems the worst dancers do the the most correcting. I'd like to address a few of these points but also add that although I teach, I am still open to correction and suggestions. I am only passing on information that I have learned. This is especially important for the teachers because you are the students role models. -One should not be teaching or correcting, well-intentioned or not, at a milonga. Do it at a practice session if you must. You should never interrupt the flow of dance while you illustrate your correction. And if you have to watch your feet or hers and can't pay attention to other dancers then you don't know the step and need to practice it. You should be dancing what you have mastered, not what you are still working on. If you are still working on it then chances are you don't know it very well and most likely are doing it wrong yourself. Don't be impatient to accumulate steps. -We are all students and unless you are a tango teacher you have no business telling your partner what she is doing wrong. Go to an instructor and bring up your questions. Especially if you are a couple. It is very easy for a couple to compensate for each other and both dance incorrectly without realizing it. -Men, remember that if the step is incorrectly done it is usually your fault. Either you led it wrong or else you misjudged the skill of your partner and tried something she was incapable for doing. I am always seeing men forcing their partners into all sorts of body distortions to make her do the step the way he thinks (erroneously) it should be done. -Don't show off especially on a crowded floor. Nobody is impressed. Don't be afraid to dance simply and cleanly with the steps you know very well. Respect and follow the line (and flow) of dance. There are many other issues but these are a few relevant ones that seem to come up often. Lastly and no offense meant but a few of you beginners who have admitted to having only a few lessons are a little too quick to develop your "philosophy" of how tango can be danced i.e. "aggressively" or "passively" dancing around the music, or along with it, etc. Try learning to do it correctly first, leave the philosophizing for later. Remember you are developing a motor skill albeit a beautiful and passionate one and should be concentrating at first at perfecting very simple and clean movements with your body and legs, keeping time to the music and leading and following. Intellectualizing won't help that, practice will. Nothing worse than a beginner trying to look cool on the floor by pausing dramatically and then losing their balance and walking off time. Cheers, Charles 6 Listeros be more humble. to many beginners are offering philosophies about dancing

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:45:55 -0000 From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Musical interpretation

Original Message ----- From: Jean-Frangois Bouchard <jean-francois.bouchard @MEQ.GOUV.QC.CA> "As a leader, my tango world was truly shaken last night. <snip> . She told me she had decided to impose upon me her own rythm and interpretation through her right arm. So, that was it. My impressions were thus not mistaken at all. <snip> We discussed along those themes for maybe 10 minutes, but it was obvious we both kept to our beliefs. We then parted. I felt sad and frustrated. Even more so because I had arrived a bit late and those were my first dances in the evening. Fortunately, the following dances with other women were quite different, and my tango joy eventually came back. I wish to share that experience, in order to get considerate reactions and advice from list members. Before I can sort my emotions and revise my attitudes, if needed." Hi Jean-Frangois, I would like to respond to your post but please bear in mind that since I was not there I don't have the whole story. Anyway, from what you say and if what you say is accurate, I would tell you not to give this unpleasant experience a second thought. Frankly, I think that her behavior was bizarre and inappropriate. IMHO, if she wanted to impose (upon me) her own rythm and interpretation", she should dance the leaders part. To me, back leading and other forms of struggle for control are a real turn off. The roles of the tango dancers are clearly defined and must be adhered to. This type of thing turns the whole concept of lead and follow of the dance upside down, very bad. Now, please let me hasten to add that I do not intend to criticize her or her ideas. After all, tango does allow for a wide variety of styles and interpretations. She is completely within her right to dance any way she wants but you are under no obligation to like it, agree with her or enjoy the experience. It seems that since she was aware of what she did and did it on purpose, it is even worse than a bad dance with an unskilled dancer. I think that until she changed her proclivities I would avoid dancing with her and enjoy dancing with more pleasant partners. Again, I was not there so this is my opinion based on what you said. Your mileage might vary, etc, etc. More pleasant tangos to you, Manuel

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:52:37 -0600 From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Re: Musical interpretation I do not think it works very well if either partner attempts to=20= =0A dictate the rhythm of their partner's movements=2E If my partn= er and I=20 are of equal skill and musicality=2C I am most comfortable dancing= tango=20 when I share the musical interpretation with the woman=2E As the = leader=2C I invite the woman to move=3B I do not forced her to mov= e=2E I=20 must rely upon her to move to the music=2C and nothing good is=20 accomplished if I try to force her to move according to my=20 interpretation of the music=2E =20 I have found a good number of Argentine women who are very skillfu= l=20 tango dancers seem to dance quite heavily--while at the same time = they=20 dancing very musically and responsively (including double-time ste= ps=29=2E=20 These women transmit their heaviness through their entire embrace= and=20 in the unrushed quality of their movements=2E They do not use the= =20 painful technique that Jean-Fran=E7ois Bouchard described where th= e=20 woman transmitted her own rhythm and interpretation through her ri= ght=20 arm=2E =20 Often the rhythmic dispute between dancers is who is dancing on th= e=20 beat and who is not=2C but tango is not danced to the beat only=2C= it is=20 also danced to other rhytmic elements in the music=2E These rhyth= mic=20 elements in the music can move either more quickly or more slowly = than=20 the beat=2C but they always move in relationship to the beat=2E F= or=20 example=2C Raul Beron's singing with Miguel Calo's orchestra does = not=20 emphasize the beat the way that Alberto Podesta's singing does wit= h=20 the same orchestra=2E If I am leading a turn when Raul Beron is s= inging=20 with the Miguel Calo orchestra=2C I should be prepared for the wom= an to=20 depart from the beat to dance with more dreamy-feeling movements t= han=20 if we were dancing to Alberto Podesta singing with the same orches= tra=2E =20 One problem with arriving late at a milonga is that good DJ's ofte= n=20 help educate the dancers to the tango rhythm early in the evening = by=20 playing music (such as DiSarli=29 that has fewer elements off the = beat=20 early in the evening=2C and then playing the music (such as Puglie= se=29=20 with more elements off the beat later in the evening=2E Someone=20= =0A arriving late who is not completely familiar with tango music m= ay have=20 a harder time hearing the rhythm=2E To help myself=2C I often lis= ten to a=20 cassette of tango music on my way to a milonga--either because I a= m=20 arriving late or am uncertain whether the DJ is going to help educ= ate=20 me to the rhythm=2E =20 --Steve de Tejas =

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:02:34 -0500 From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET> Subject: The leader as the primary interpreter of the music Jean-Francois wrote: "I replied that, as a leader, I felt I had the responsibility of doing the primary interpretation of the music and, as a consequence, I needed enough freedom to transmit her the energy coming from that interpretation. At the same time, this did not restrict my obligation to allow her enough freedom for her own secondary interpretation of the music. Her point was that she now did not agree with the principle of the primary interpretation coming from the leader. (It should be emphasized that, in French, the words 'leader' and ...." Jean-Francois, the leader has at the very least four responsibilities when dancing Argentine Tango. 1- Feeling the music. 2- Deciding how he is going to translate that feeling into dance. 3- Transmitting (leading) to the lady his feelings and inducing her to perform the steps that he is proposing. 4- Navigating the floor, flowing with the music and the crowd, avoiding collisions. The follower on the other hand has the responsibility 1- To receive the lead and develop the steps that are being proposed. (Here she has some latitude to express her feelings in her dance.) 2- To dance synchronically with the leader. 3- To use ornaments only if time is allowed for them. 4- She should not anticipate or use ornaments that interfere with the flow of the dance that the leader is proposing. There are ladies that are "heavy" and "slow" to dance with. You as a man have the choice to invite to dance those ladies that are great to dance with. I suggest that you should dance mostly with women that you enjoy dancing with; there are some that are learning and should be given the opportunity to dance with you but there are others that only will aggravate you; I suggest that you should avoid dancing with them. Other leaders might enjoy dancing with them, as you know, there are masochistic men too.

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:07:06 -0500 From: Reuven <Reuven @THEBEST1.COM> Subject: Re: Musical interpretation Dear Jean-Francois, I guess some people would impose their political/neurotic views and impulses on others, rather then just enjoy some nice dancing. I would not question my Tango or any other of my qualities: it's not you problem, it's hers. My advice - stay away from followers that do not contribute to you joy of dancing, and tango with the many others who would be thrilled to dance with you, and would appreciate your leading. Happy holiday season, Reuven Jean-Frangois Bouchard wrote: > As a leader, my tango world was truly shaken last night. > > I was getting ready to dance a melodious (and relatively slow) tango with = > a lady who is a good and energetic (and generally ornate) dancer. I know = > her quite well, and I also know that I need to "listen" to her, in order = > to allow for the expressiveness she is good for. I would not think of = > imposing her any kind of unilateral interpretation of music, without = > allowing time for her own expression. > > As soon as we started that first tango, I could not recognize her style, = > who is normally quite lively. It struck me as awkward, especially that I = > had danced with her the previous night without noticing anything special. = > She was extremely heavy in her movements. Her right arm was full of = > pressure. She was deliberately slowing down the rythm of the dance. Not = > along some secondary rythm of the song, but seemingly along her wish to = > gain as much time as she could for performing ornaments. So much that I = > had to counter with excessive pressure in my own left arm and that I was = > not able any more to follow the rythm the music was providing. I could not = > really attempt an interpretation of the music. Her right arm was "absorbing= > " whatever energy came from my leading. > > After that first song, she told me that I did not seem at ease. I simply = > replied that I did not recognize her dancing. The second dance started, = > and the situation was still the same. At that time, I even hypothesized to = > myself that she could have had a few drinks in excess of her own sober = > habits; but our later discussions proved me wrong: alcohol had nothing to = > do there. The second dance was not more pleasant. I did not feel we were = > both contributing to a common "ephemeral masterpiece of unity". > > Between the second and third dances, she briefly mentioned that she was = > experiencing her new approach to tango, where she was entirely expressing = > her own emotions. The third dance was somewhat lighter, but not different = > in essence. > > I thanked her and we rapidly moved away from the dance floor, into a = > quiet corner. Obviously, we both felt the need for a form of explanation. = > I first told her that I had been very surprised by the nature of our = > connection during those three dances. She told me she had decided to = > impose upon me her own rythm and interpretation through her right arm. So, = > that was it. My impressions were thus not mistaken at all.=20 > > I replied that, as a leader, I felt I had the responsibility of doing the = > primary interpretation of the music and, as a consequence, I needed enough = > freedom to transmit her the energy coming from that interpretation. At the = > same time, this did not restrict my obligation to allow her enough freedom = > for her own secondary interpretation of the music. Her point was that she = > now did not agree with the principle of the primary interpretation coming = > from the leader. (It should be emphasized that, in French, the words = > 'leader' and 'follower' are not commonly used, only the words 'man' and = > 'woman'; thus 'man' does not equate 'leader' in common tango talk). I also = > added that my experience for our three dances had not been a happy one = > because I had not felt we were contributing to a common pleasure. > > We discussed along those themes for maybe 10 minutes, but it was obvious = > we both kept to our beliefs. We then parted. > > I felt sad and frustrated. Even more so because I had arrived a bit late = > and those were my first dances in the evening. Fortunately, the following = > dances with other women were quite different, and my tango joy eventually = > came back.=20 > > I wish to share that experience, in order to get considerate reactions and = > advice from list members. Before I can sort my emotions and revise my = > attitudes, if needed. > > I hope some of you will have ideas about the sharing of tasks between = > leader and follower, especially about musical interpretation. > > All my thanks to you for sharing your ideas > > Jean-Fran=E7ois BOUCHARD > jean-francois.bouchard @meq.gouv.qc.ca > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to > Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the > command "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU. > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:21:44 -0500 From: SERGIO <SERGIO @NCINTER.NET> Subject: Women "heavy" to dance with. Stephen P.Brown wrote: "I have found a good number of Argentine women who are very skillful tango dancers seem to dance quite heavily--while at the same time th= ey dancing very musically and responsively (including double-time steps= ). These women transmit their heaviness through their entire embrace a= nd in the unrushed quality of their movements. They do not use the painful technique that Jean-Fran=E7ois Bouchard described where the woman transmitted her own rhythm and interpretation through her righ= t arm." In my experience women that are "heavy" to dance with have enormous variation with respect to their dancing skills. Some are very good dancers otherwise as described by Stephen. In any case, in my opinion, this heaviness is a problem that develops ear= ly during the learning process. This should be prevented from happening by t= he good tango teacher or at the very least it should be corrected early enou= gh; since as you know "Practice makes Perfect" but in this case left uncorrec= ted "Practice makes PERMANENT". The good dancers are very light to dance with because they dance in synchrony and support their own weight through the hole dance; versus the heavy ones that dance "slow", always a fraction of time behind the leader and lean heavily on the man; who feels like he is pushing a truck uphill. Today I wish " May all of you beautiful ladies become "light" dancers.

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:21:22 +0100 From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM> Subject: Re: Musical interpretation

Original Message----- From: Reuven <Reuven @thebest1.com>

Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Musical interpretation >Dear Jean-Francois, > >I guess some people would impose their political/neurotic views and impulses on >others, rather then just enjoy some nice dancing. >I would not question my Tango or any other of my qualities: it's not you >problem, it's hers. >My advice - stay away from followers that do not contribute to you joy of >dancing, and tango with the many others who would be thrilled to dance with you, >and would appreciate your leading. > >Happy holiday season, >Reuven > >Jean-Frangois Bouchard wrote: > >> As a leader, my tango world was truly shaken last night. >> >> for her own secondary interpretation of the music. Her point was that she = >> now did not agree with the principle of the primary interpretation coming = >> from the leader. (It should be emphasized that, in French, the words = >> 'leader' and 'follower' are not commonly used, only the words 'man' and = >> 'woman'; thus 'man' does not equate 'leader' in common tango talk). I also = >> added that my experience for our three dances had not been a happy one = >> because I had not felt we were contributing to a common pleasure. >> >> We discussed along those themes for maybe 10 minutes, but it was obvious = >> we both kept to our beliefs. We then parted. >> advice from list members. Before I can sort my emotions and revise my = >> attitudes, if needed. >> >> I hope some of you will have ideas about the sharing of tasks between = >> leader and follower, especially about musical interpretation. >> >> All my thanks to you for sharing your ideas >> >> Jean-Fran=E7ois BOUCHARD >> jean-francois.bouchard @meq.gouv.qc.ca I guess my attitude would be same as Reuvens. She is experimenting (which is good) and the results of her experiments should show up in a short time(it is especially fast in Tango -- which is also good:-). So, may be in about three weeks she would be either dancing happily with a lot of men (or dancing happily with only the few good leaders) or not too many and that would give an indication of whether she was correct and may be you missed some fine point or not. I do get comments and suggestions from followers (mostly those with whom I may have danced quite a few times) when they are cross-pollinating skills they have noticed elsewhere. Many times I do find it useful if it is said politely and suggestively rather than domineeringly(in which case I find it hard to concentrate on what they are saying so fail to understand what is being said-- and that can happen only once or twice). I have also seen many skilled followers not get invited to dance as much as they should be not because they are bad dancers but the associated other baggage. May be this is so since if one is a good follower one would perhaps want to dance to ones fullest potential and there is some impatience with anyone who can not bring out the best in them. I suppose that like the way they rate the restaurants, actual quality of the food(or dancing skill) itself is perhaps only a part of what contributes to overall dancing experience. BTW, in swing I have seen classes(and taken one class) where they teach how the follower can suggest a leader although I have not heard of this as much in AT(may be there are in BsAs-- I remember watching a documentary where they have an interview with a female instructor who teaches followers how to lead the leader subtley). At the very least, I would expect the follower to follow the lead and if she is skillful, she would might be able to suggest something more and then stay in neutral(may be I would be able to do it may be not-- it would be no good forcing it out of me). rajan.

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:43:23 EST From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM> Subject: Leading Ladies To Jean-Francois, Most of the other responses speak for themselves and I am in agreement with them. Adorments and embellishments are only a superficial part of what makes a partner a beautiful dancer. Following is not passive, it is very active and responsive and demonstrates a keen sensitivity to ones partner. I don't how the women feel about this but I find it very exciting and challenging (and often very romantic) when my partner follows me no matter what I do. It's also her way of telling me that all the fancy steps in the world are nothing if there is no one to help me execute them. If a partner insists on dictating the pace or feel of the dance, there is a very simple solution - don't dance with her. Cheers, Charles

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 16:50:35 EST From: Timothy Pogros <TimmyTango @AOL.COM> Subject: who is leading who I was always taught and I hope it stays this way, that there is only one leader in dancing. I also know that there are times that the lady can add her secondary embellishment so she may show off her grace and charm, only how ever, if the man gives her the time to complete them. Now who is really the leader. Carlos Gavito thinks of the tango as a clock, tick, tock, tick, tock. The man engages a steps TICK, the lady ends the step TOCK. Both working together to create a beautiful marriage of motion but still one dance. I am Tim Pogros (TimmyTango)

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:03:55 +0100 From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM> Subject: Re: Leading Ladies

Original Message----- From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @aol.com>

Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 10:44 PM Subject: Leading Ladies > I don't how >the women feel about this but I find it very exciting and challenging (and >often very romantic) when my partner follows me no matter what I do. This is what I find exciting too-- it reminds me of "the flight of the bumblebee" or being chased by one ... something that can not be shaken off no matter what. rajan >Cheers, >Charles > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to >Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the >command "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:23:41 -0600 From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Re: Musical Interpretation I am a bit dismayed that nearly everyone other than me who responded to Jean-Francois's query believes the leader has sole or primary responsibility for musical interpretation. Maybe I am splitting logical or semantic hairs, but even with a woman who dances lightly, it is nearly impossible for the leader to move the follower perfectly to the music on his own. She is making the movement. The man marks the beginning of her step, and lets her execute it. If she choose to take more or less time than he wants, he will find it easier to adjust to her rhythm. If he tries to push or pull her into a rhythm that is perfect for himself he will soon find himself worn out, and wanting to dance with someone else. The idea of the woman following the man's every movement with perfect timing is a sublime illusion created by an unspoken agreement between them about how the music should be interpreted. --Steve de Tejas

Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:12:46 -0800 From: "James H. Stein" <steinj @BEST.COM> Subject: Leading the Cross (was: Teaching Walking) >>> I'll therefore take my chance on asking Keith about the leading of the cross (la cruz), hoping that I'm not taking the discussion into something very simple or uninteresting. <<< Not to worry! The cross may or may not be simple, but how to do it IS interesting -- if only because there are so many opinions about it. >>> I've read that the cross is to be led ... [with the torso and/or shoulders] and not done as a routine, but I've never been taught how to lead it, or found any description of it. Could you please explain how this is done? <<< I am an "intermediate beginner", just as you are, so you must be suspicious of everything I say. I have heard at least _six_ different theories on leading the cross. Here they are, ordered (in my opinion) from worst-to-best. Some of these theories are compatible; some share common underlying ideas. (The 8-count "Academic Basic" is assumed: count 5 is the cross.) 1. On step 3 the man signals that a cross is coming (two steps later!) by touching woman's right leg with his right leg. (This technique makes no sense to me whatever, and conflicts with my understanding of leading other steps at this same place.) 2. The man leads the cross with his right forearm against the woman's left side, nudging her to her right. 3. The cross is not led. The woman is aware of when the man is outside to her right; whenever he has been to her right for two or more steps while moving forward, she must cross on her next back right step. 4. The man leads the cross with his torso, translating slightly to his left on step 5. 5. The man leads the cross with his torso, which first translates somewhat leftward during step 5, but which also rotates slightly counter-clockwise towards the end of step 5. 6. The cross is not just led, but also followed. The cross OCCURS NATURALLY as the follower strives to maintain correct dance position with the leader. Because the man is to her right, if she were to step straight back without crossing and with proper technique, her chest would no longer squarely face the man's chest, but would face somewhat rightward (resulting in a position sometimes called "banjo" or "dancing with someone else"). Stepping back left and then translating the left foot rightward ("hooking", or "crossing behind") could arrive at a good dance position, but is awkward (try it!) and momentarily disrupts the dance position. Thus, the follower naturally crosses. --J.

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:49:56 -0700 From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz @CSN.NET> Subject: Re: Musical Interpretation > I am a bit dismayed that nearly everyone other than me who responded > to Jean-Francois's query believes the leader has sole or primary > responsibility for musical interpretation. Maybe I am splitting >... > The idea of the woman following the man's every movement with perfect > timing is a sublime illusion created by an unspoken agreement between > them about how the music should be interpreted. > > --Steve de Tejas Marta Savigliano in "Tango: The Political Economy of Passion" speaks of the milonguera who is so good she can change the man's mind without him even realizing it. Each step of the follower enables or disables the next step of the leader. This is true in the obvious and subtle sense. A truly sublime dancer follows perfectly, yet has something to say. She is neither sluggish nor a rag doll. The quality, energy or feeling of a step is just as important as when and where it is placed. Tango becomes flight when the follower's opinion is as important as the leader, and her contribution suggests possibilities that weren't there when the leader started the movement. I find that this happens when both the follower and the leader achieve that intuitive moment, when you unify with each other and IN the music, not just ON the beat. Then there are those special moments dancing close-embrace to La Bordona by Pugliese with a great milonguera in Buenos Aires, when this feedback loop threatens to burn your heart out! The secret lies in feeling the music and discovering what happens "in-between" the steps. Tom Stermitz 2612 Clermont St Denver, CO 80207 Chautauqua Publishing / Ragtime Interiors "On-Line Arts & Crafts Movement Resource Directory." (303) 388 - 2560 stermitz @ragtime.org http://www.ragtime.org/ragtime/ http://www.tango.org/dance/

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:52:57 +1300 From: Alex White <alex_tangofirulete @XTRA.CO.NZ> Subject: Re: Leading the Cross (was: Teaching Walking) Hi List. & James, I'd like to explain that I usually led the cross not only with my body but confirm it with a " compact scooping" of my right hand. Taking most of the below description into account I find I can led a cross without my hand "scoop" a her back, just with my torso movement. - but I like to explain it (an easy way to remember it for me) - an increased pressure of the lower part of the right hand/ forearm on the woman's back - a very smooth and compact movement. - like "scooping ice-cream". Although this depends on the dancing style used. e.g. in milonguero style mainly the torso with very little right hand involvement. Happy dancing todos! Alex White TANGO FIRULETE alex_tangofirulete @yahoo.com Visit me: http://come.to/tango_firulete Ph: +(64 4) 567-9406 021 254 3891 Tango Argentino classes; Tues/Thurs/Sats/Suns. Ask about kids courses :) *******************

Original Message ----- From: James H. Stein <steinj @BEST.COM> To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 8:12 AM Subject: Leading the Cross (was: Teaching Walking) > >>> > I'll therefore take my chance on asking Keith about the leading of > the cross (la cruz), hoping that I'm not taking the discussion into > something very simple or uninteresting. > <<< > > Not to worry! The cross may or may not be simple, but how to do it IS > interesting -- if only because there are so many opinions about it. > > >>> > I've read that the cross is to be led ... [with the torso and/or > shoulders] and not done as a routine, but I've never been taught how > to lead it, or found any description of it. Could you please explain > how this is done? > <<< > > I am an "intermediate beginner", just as you are, so you must be > suspicious of everything I say. > > I have heard at least _six_ different theories on leading the cross. > Here they are, ordered (in my opinion) from worst-to-best. Some of > these theories are compatible; some share common underlying ideas. > > (The 8-count "Academic Basic" is assumed: count 5 is the cross.) > > 1. On step 3 the man signals that a cross is coming (two steps > later!) by touching woman's right leg with his right leg. > (This technique makes no sense to me whatever, and conflicts with my > understanding of leading other steps at this same place.) > > 2. The man leads the cross with his right forearm against the woman's > left side, nudging her to her right. > > 3. The cross is not led. The woman is aware of when the man is > outside to her right; whenever he has been to her right for two or > more steps while moving forward, she must cross on her next back > right step. > > 4. The man leads the cross with his torso, translating slightly to > his left on step 5. > > 5. The man leads the cross with his torso, which first translates > somewhat leftward during step 5, but which also rotates slightly > counter-clockwise towards the end of step 5. > > 6. The cross is not just led, but also followed. The cross OCCURS > NATURALLY as the follower strives to maintain correct dance position > with the leader. Because the man is to her right, if she were to step > straight back without crossing and with proper technique, her chest > would no longer squarely face the man's chest, but would face > somewhat rightward (resulting in a position sometimes called "banjo" > or "dancing with someone else"). Stepping back left and then > translating the left foot rightward ("hooking", or "crossing behind") > could arrive at a good dance position, but is awkward (try it!) and > momentarily disrupts the dance position. Thus, the follower > naturally crosses. > > --J. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to > Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the > command "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to LISTSERV @MITVMA.MIT.EDU. > -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:36:32 +0000 From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: Leading the cross See my online book Argentine Tango Dancing, Chapter 3. Skip the first section & start on the second section, titled "Inside and Outside Position." Larry de Los Angeles http://home.att.net/~larrydla/basics_3.html ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:34:50 -0600 From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw @MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU> Subject: Re: finding the right teacher Greetings all, Candy Korman wrote: > > I've also found that dancing with the students of certain teachers will give > one a hint about who is providing good instruction. Well!... I suspect that most teachers (of any subject) would rather you evaluate them directly. Every teacher has students who do well and also students who do not practice, study, or work. The latter pay just as much as the former and so their lessons are difficult to decline. However, only the best students can really represent an instructor's potential. ...and there is an almost incomprehensible range of abilities and learning styles that present at dance classes. > Once I went to a dance > and a man kept instructing me verbally instead of leading -- "now you do > this, now you do that." He had learned step patterns but not how to > communicate with a partner. It was not a great Tango moment. There is even considerable difference of knowledgeable opinion about what constitutes a good lead. On top of that, it is impossible for many people to learn *except* by memorization. Those who are out-of-touch with their bodies (there's a concept, but we've all seen it!) memorize the elements that are most obvious to them - foot position. It is not nearly so easy to memorize feelings of momentum, balance and posture. Should those who simply can't learn this way give up? No. If they want to come to class, (at their level) they should be welcome. We were all clumsy beginners once. My point is, it would be unfair to compare students. They are not learning facts on which they can be tested - they are learning feelings, directly or indirectly. For some beginners, this is beyond their concept of dance and they never realize that they don't "get it". Regards from balmy Minnesota! Frank in Minneapolis _________________________________________________________ Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota frankw @mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience (612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE (612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455 (612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)

End of TANGO-L Digest - 29 Nov 1999 to 30 Nov 1999 (#1999-77) *************************************************************