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Digest from 12 Nov 1999
to 13 Nov 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:00:06 -0500
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 12 Nov 1999 to 13 Nov 1999 (#1999-62)
There are 9 messages totalling 445 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Boleos - A Follower's Perspective
2. Boleos (2)
3. "Round" Boleos
4. dancable Tango
5. Re. "amague" (2)
6. Antwort: Re: Answer: Recient dancable Tango recordings
7. Amague cont.
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:55:07 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Boleos - A Follower's Perspective
Original Message-----
From: Brannigan, Mary <Mary.Brannigan @WWIRELESS.COM>
> The same results would occur if the follower was too
focused on the idea
>of how the boleo should "look", and altered the natural
pendulum movement by
>controlling her leg, say by adding a "flick", a "stab" or
attempting to
>"round out" the boleo.
> Ideally, the action is started with a clear lead and
simply RESPONDED to,
>resulting in a single smooth, strong action with collection
occurring just
>as the movement ends.
I think this is a critical point-- I have found beginners
are easier to lead
with respect to boleos -- they simply respond to the leading
with instinct
and that works fine! Most of them are bright and happy since
something
that they think they are doing is 'complicated' is happening
rather automatically
and *they* are doing it. At a recent milonga the comment
from the
follower I was dancing with was that she felt as if she was
going to trap on
her own foot any time (fortunately did not happen). As the
saying goes, a
millipede which tries to think and analyze how to move its
many legs is
going to trap on its own feet.
>perform front boleos immediately after a back boleo, w/o
waiting for it to
>be led. I've also heard followers talk about how
frustrated their leads get
>b.c. they can't them to perform a series of back/front/back
boleos. Any
>takers on starting up a new string?
I think this could be because if they were doing the boleos
right, like a
pendulum(as someone said in a previous posting, this is an
anology from
Fabian Salas who taught the boleos) the pendulum would
swing back
and forth unless "arrested" by the leader. This stopping
can happen if
the leader makes a slightly larger movement. This would
force the follower
put the weight on the leg that would otherwise swing freely.
This would also
cause the "stabbing" effect. (A larger movement than
"slight" would cause
the followerto fall on the leader, I think ;-)
If the leader losens up his own movement slightly, after
letting the weight
fall on the followers foot -- The foot will move in the
opposite direction
skimming the floor a little bit, since, if the boleos were
being executed
properly, there is still some inertia(like a spring
attached-- the spring is
at the hips since the leg itself is swinging freely but with
weight on it and
the friction from the floor, it can not swing ). And another
boleo can start
on the other leg. This looks and sounds (all the stabbings
cause the
wonderful sound effect on a wooden floor) great for a
milonga. I dont
know if letting the stabbing happen will constitute a
'square' boleo since
I had not known there were two verities in the first place.
rajan.
> Abrazos,
> Mary de Seattle
>
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Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:08:43 -0800
From: J Lane <jlane @POP.NWNEXUS.COM>
Subject: Re: Boleos
>From: "Brannigan, Mary" <Mary.Brannigan @WWIRELESS.COM>
> I've often heard leads discuss the fact that sometimes followers will
>perform front boleos immediately after a back boleo, w/o waiting for it to
>be led. I've also heard followers talk about how frustrated their leads get
>b.c. they can't them to perform a series of back/front/back boleos. Any
>takers on starting up a new string?
...
>> From: Juan Rando <juan @STARWON.COM.AU>
>> I dont's agree that boleos are strictly lead moves. A woman with good
timing and
>> foot speed should be free to incorporate the odd boleo. I should
distinguish at
>> the stage, what I call social boleos. A social boleo (for want of a better
word)
>> is one that stays of the floor and simply traces an arc. These can make
great
>> embellishments for the ladies
>From: Mike Hamilton <mikeh @MPL.UCSD.EDU>
>Okay, this is true. But, the problem is a boleo tends to be (not
>always) a large movement which you can't really do fast enough to "fit
>in there". A really good follow, or one that does a low-boleo...
>okay, that works as an embellishment.
A boleo is a led move, except when it isn't. :-) Just like nearly
everything else in tango.
The lead suggests the size/speed of the boleo with the energy and direction
of the lead. Anything from a tiny, one foot barely behind the other boleo,
to a "flick", to a "rounded", or even a half boleo (stop and pose for a
moment when the foot reaches it's furthest point, however far that may be,
and then collect and complete the movement).
When a walking step is lead, the follow has little choice but to take a step.
She might do an embellishment along the way, but not taking the step, or
taking a differently sized/timed step will almost certainly throw one or both
partners' balance and timing off.
But with a boleo, the lead asks for the movement, but only suggests the
size/speed/style. If the follow's interpretation of the music is different
than the lead's, she can change the details. Obviously it's easier for the
follow to do a larger/faster boleo than what the lead asked for; doing a
smaller/slower one means figuring out what to do with the extra energy.
If she tries to follow up with an unasked-for front boleo, she may be
thrown off balance by her partner's attempt to lead something else. But
tango is a partnership; she can ask the lead to relax for a moment, while
she does something on her own. Admittedly this kind of communication
takes practice; is generally not for beginning tango dancers; and
is somewhat controversial with some of the more socially conservative
dancers. But IMNSHO, making the communication between partners a real
two-way conversation is very worth the practice.
If she chooses to add a "social boleo" as an embellishment, then it's her
responsibility to fit it in without disturbing the flow of the dance, just
like any other embellishment. A front or back boleo embellishment can
often be nice in an ocho or giro sequence.
Jim
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:43:02 +0000
From: "~DANCE MORE TANGO~" <24tango @BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: "Round" Boleos
To Mary and Laura and those interested in "Round Boleos".....
Let me begin by saying that to me a pretty boleo is as important as
a good ocho. It is magical to watch the girls of BA doing both these
movements. I find the round, or circular boleo one of the hardest
things I have tried to learn and although I know the logistics, it is
easier
to accomplish during practice in front of a mirror than during a dance.
IMHO this particular boleo does not come from the upper thigh or the
hip but rather from the pelvis, which should be totally relaxed. The
pelvis
and hip turn slightly to the back, throwing the leg up and around quickly,
(the BA girls almost touch their bodies,) and if the knees are fairly close
together the "collection" comes easily. I've only been working at this
movement for 7 years, I have plenty of time to get it right......along
with that pesky molinete..
regards,
norma
www.dancemoretango.com
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:18:38 +0100
From: Schulz Johannes <j.schulz @STR.DAIMLER-BENZ.COM>
Subject: dancable Tango
>
Hola List.
> But why don't we have more recent music for social dancing?
I think in the time around 1930 and 1940 the orchesters had to play very often
dancingmusic and they had convince each time to the social dancers.
So the group developed the dancing music to a really high level.
After 1940 the dance stop but the music was going on and was developed to concert
music.
For example Pedro Laurenz, one of the best bandoneon player created really good
dance music
with his orchester. But later he was playing with Quinteto Real and the type of
music changed
to concert music.
I make a difference between groups, that want to play for dancers and groups which
want to play
concert music.
If you ask a ochester which prefers to play concert music to play for dancers (for
example Mosalini,
Monteroni, Sexteto Tango) you can feel and hear the difference to groups, which
want to play dancing
music. (Sexteto Canyengue, Color Tango, El Arranque).
Sexteto Canyengue is for me an exception, because they play very good dancing music
and concert music.
One reason for me to organize Tango ball's with live dance music, is to support the
musians, that they can
develope dance music and maybe we are getting after a time new good dancing music
orchesters.
I want to ask the musicans, what's the difficulty to play dance music. You don't
have the freedom like with
concert music and you have to play between boundarys. If the music is to difficult
for the dancers, they can't
play with there figures and the tempo (double tempo) because they give the whole
consentration to the music.
Also the reason of the tanda is, that the dancers get to know about there partners
and the music and so the dancers
can raise there dance by every song. So it must be a kompromisse between music,
steps, tempo and the understanding
of the dancing partners. If one of these parts takes to much attention, the other
parts will be neglect.
Greetings
Johannes
Stuttgart / Germany
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:03:58 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Boleos
Juan Rando wrote
>>Mary wrote :
>>For the sake of clariry, I've come to understand that a lot of people
>>refer to a front boleo as an "amague".
>
>Could someone tell me where/why the word "amague" started being used for the
>front boleos. I tend to relate to things in terms of the lead required to
>execute them, which is why I don't distinguish between front and back boleos,
>conceptually.
"Amague" means fake, which might be considered an appropriate way to describe a
reversal of pivot which characterizes both an amague and a boleo. On the other
hand, the term "boleo" is thought by some to describe the apparent rotating
motion of the foot of the woman's free leg in the "round" boleo. The foot of
the woman's free leg does not take the same rotating motion for an amague. So
the boleo is actually a back amague, but the amague is not really a front boleo.
Larry de Los Angeles wrote:
>>"Regular" boleo: keeping your knees together, raise your lower leg so it
>>points straight back. Flick your foot to the side, behind your back. Return
>>your leg to the straight back position & lower it to the floor.
>"Round" boleo: keeping your knees together, flick your foot to the side, behind
>your back. Keep your foot close to the floor until your lower leg is pointing
>as much as it can straight out to the side. Then raise your lower leg till it
>points straight bacward, move it so it points straight back, & lower it to the
>floor.
Mary de Seattle replied:
>First of all, I'd like to clarify that the follower's knees should not be
>locked or kept together throughout the boleo. The movement should come from
>the upper thigh, just below the hip. Letting the movement swing your *entire*
>leg out from this area gives the boleo lift and power. Like a pendulum, the
>leg will return to the side of the other, and *this is the time when you want
>to collect.
I would like to second Mary's description of technique for the boleo. In
addition to delivering torque to the leader, the boleo that Larry describes
produces an unnatural movement of the woman's knee that could contribute to a
knee injury.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:16:52 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re. "amague"
In response to Stephen Brown:
Amague means a "threat", not a fake, but in a harmless sense as in indicating
that one is about to do something. From the verb "amagar" which is more or
less synonymous with "amenazar" (to threaten). There seem to be a number of
tango terms that are taking on different meanings because of misunderstood
usage. When in doubt look in a Spanish dictionary. Even though many of the
dance terms are subject-specific they retain more or less the same meaning as
in normal spoken spanish (with a few exceptions of course).
Also just to squelch false rumors, the show Tango Argentino did NOT introduce
the world to Tango. Tango has been well known by many cultures for most of
this century. What it did was help bring about the current revival of
interest in the dance after a dormant period during the sixties and seventies.
Cheers, Charles
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:14:10 +0200
From: Hayri Erenli <mhayrie @ESCORTNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Antwort: Re: Answer: Recient dancable Tango recordings
Hans Peter wrote :
> Francisco Canaro have about 5.000 recordings!
> Perhaps there are all together 40.000 or 70.000 different tango-titles
in the
> world!
That is a gross exageration. Academia del Tango estimates that
there are 15.000 tangos in all and only a very small fraction of that
number is being listened to. I can boast that my tango collection
(of records) is huge by any standard and yet it contains no more
than 2,500 different tangos.
Regards from Istanbul to all the tango lovers all around the world ...
Hayri
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:43:13 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re. "amague"
Charles wrote:
>Amague means a "threat", not a fake, but in a harmless sense as in
>indicating that one is about to do something. From the verb "amagar"
>which is more or less synonymous with "amenazar" (to threaten). There
>seem to be a number of tango terms that are taking on different
>meanings because of misunderstood usage. When in doubt look in a
>Spanish dictionary. Even though many of the dance terms are
>subject-specific they retain more or less the same meaning as in
>normal spoken spanish (with a few exceptions of course).
Charles, you need to get a better Spanish dictionary. According to
the Oxford Spanish Dictionary among its other meanings, "amague" means
bluff, fake or feint. A quick check with an Argentinean friend
produced the same translation, and this is most certainly its usage in
referring to the dance movement of the same name.
--Steve de Tejas
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re. "amague"
Author: <Crrtango @AOL.COM> at dalsmtp
Date: 11/12/99 3:16 PM
In response to Stephen Brown:
Also just to squelch false rumors, the show Tango Argentino did NOT introduce
the world to Tango. Tango has been well known by many cultures for most of
this century. What it did was help bring about the current revival of
interest in the dance after a dormant period during the sixties and seventies.
Cheers, Charles
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:26:32 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Amague cont.
Steve from Texas wrote:
>>>>>Charles, you need to get a better Spanish dictionary. According to
the Oxford Spanish Dictionary among its other meanings, "amague" means
bluff, fake or feint. A quick check with an Argentinean friend
produced the same translation, and this is most certainly its usage in
referring to the dance movement of the same name.
Actually I have several Spanish dictionaries including the one from the
Royal Spanish Academy but I don't have a Spanish/English one so I am
translating it as: "giving the intention of being about to do something". It
also says to "see 'amenazar' ", which does mean to threaten or menace. But
this could also be considered as a feint when I think about it so I stand
corrected. Many Spanish words, although identical, will vary in meaning from
country to country. I have spoken Spanish since long before learning tango
and many words I know from another context.
Cheers,
Charles
End of TANGO-L Digest - 12 Nov 1999 to 13 Nov 1999 (#1999-62)
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