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Digest from 11 Nov 1999
to 12 Nov 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 11 Nov 1999 to 12 Nov 1999 (#1999-61)
There are 9 messages totalling 588 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. "Round" boleos (3)
2. Boleos - A Follower's Perspective (3)
3. Boleos - A Follower's Perspective (long) (3)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:56:00 +0000
From: Larry Carroll <larrydla @JUNO.COM>
Subject: "Round" boleos
"Regular" boleo: keeping your knees together, raise your lower
leg so it points straight back. Flick your foot to the side,
behind your back. Return your leg to the straight back position
& lower it to the floor.
"Round" boleo: keeping your knees together, flick your foot to
the side, behind your back. Keep your foot close to the floor
until your lower leg is pointing as much as it can straight out
to the side. Then raise your lower leg till it points straight
bacward, move it so it points straight back, & lower it to the
floor.
That's the detail. The effect is that with the "round" boleo
you make a curvy motion, with the "regular" you make more of
a stabbing motion.
Larry de Los Angeles
http://home.att.net/~larrydla
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:46:44 -0800
From: "Brannigan, Mary" <Mary.Brannigan @WWIRELESS.COM>
Subject: Boleos - A Follower's Perspective
I've never heard of "round" as opposed to "regular" boleos, so I'd love to
hear more about what is involved in the execution of both and how they
differ.
However, after reading a posting detailing the many, many different
things that should be included when performing a boleo, I felt a bit
overwhelmed ("I should be including a WHAT? A flick?"). So, I thought it
important to post a more simplistic viewpoint for the followers.
First of all, I'd like to clarify that the follower's knees should not be
locked or kept together throughout the boleo. The movement should come from
the upper thigh, just below the hip. Letting the movement swing your
*entire leg out from this area gives the boleo lift and power. Like a
pendulum, the leg will return to the side of the other, and *this is the
time when you want to collect. (This applies to both front and back
boleos.)
The direction of the boleo (to the front, back to the side or directly
back) is determined by the lead.
I'm not saying collecting isn't important. In fact, it's critical to
collect your knees and ankles, but not until *after the boleo has reached
the height of it's arc and begun it's return. If the follower is concerned
about keeping her knees collected throughout the boleo, the movement is cut
short and becomes tense and clumsy, not to mention dangerous as she may risk
torqueing her body in order to keep those knees locked.
The same results would occur if the follower was too focused on the idea
of how the boleo should "look", and altered the natural pendulum movement by
controlling her leg, say by adding a "flick", a "stab" or attempting to
"round out" the boleo.
Ideally, the action is started with a clear lead and simply RESPONDED to,
resulting in a single smooth, strong action with collection occurring just
as the movement ends.
Also, the leg which just executed the boleo should not automatically take
the weight once it's collected. The follow, after collecting, should
continue keeping that leg free and *wait for the next lead.
I've often heard leads discuss the fact that sometimes followers will
perform front boleos immediately after a back boleo, w/o waiting for it to
be led. I've also heard followers talk about how frustrated their leads get
b.c. they can't them to perform a series of back/front/back boleos. Any
takers on starting up a new string?
As a side note, while walking or doing ochos, I've sometimes performed
taps with little kicks which can go either straight back or in a rounded
movement, and are done from the collected knees down. (Perhaps there's a
name for these? I first saw Daniella do them in a milonga.) However, I
consider these movements embellishments, not boleos, as they are controlled
from the knees down, and not led.
I hope this posting provided some insight, and thanks to all who are
giving their 2 cents worth on this. It's interesting to read the different
takes.
Abrazos,
Mary de Seattle
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:05:38 -0800
From: Mike Hamilton <mikeh @MPL.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Boleos - A Follower's Perspective (long)
Dear Mary, and list,
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Brannigan, Mary wrote:
> I've never heard of "round" as opposed to "regular" boleos, so I'd love to
> hear more about what is involved in the execution of both and how they
> differ.
> However, after reading a posting detailing the many, many different
> things that should be included when performing a boleo, I felt a bit
> overwhelmed ("I should be including a WHAT? A flick?"). So, I thought it
> important to post a more simplistic viewpoint for the followers.
I've seen some people teach who did the boleo like Larry de LA
described the "normal" - a "flick". IMO, they're not nearly as nice
at the "rounded" boleos (which Seattle dancers tend to do almost
exclusively, thanks to the influence of many good teachers. Okay, I'm
a little partial ;-)). I think that it lacks the finesse and
smoothness, too. It doesn't "feel" as nice, connection-wise. The
"rounded" boleos come about for a very specific reason, as explained
by Fabian Salas, and here by Mary. The "flick" ones, in my opinion,
are more forced (by the follow), less lead. I'm of the belief that
boleos are stricly lead moves, not embellishments performed by the
follower.
> The direction of the boleo (to the front, back to the side or directly
> back) is determined by the lead.
For the sake of clariry, I've come to understand that a lot of people
refer to a front boleo as an "amague".
> I'm not saying collecting isn't important. In fact, it's critical to
> collect your knees and ankles, but not until *after the boleo has reached
> the height of it's arc and begun it's return. If the follower is concerned
> about keeping her knees collected throughout the boleo, the movement is cut
> short and becomes tense and clumsy, not to mention dangerous as she may risk
> torqueing her body in order to keep those knees locked.
> The same results would occur if the follower was too focused on the idea
> of how the boleo should "look", and altered the natural pendulum movement by
> controlling her leg, say by adding a "flick", a "stab" or attempting to
> "round out" the boleo.
This tends to be what I feel as a lead when a follow does the "flick"
version (as opposed to the rounded version). I hesitate to call the
"flick" version the "regular" version (as did Larry de LA), since I
learned the rounded version as "regular" and I personally think it's a
nicer boleo.
> Ideally, the action is started with a clear lead and simply RESPONDED to,
> resulting in a single smooth, strong action with collection occurring just
> as the movement ends.
> Also, the leg which just executed the boleo should not automatically take
> the weight once it's collected. The follow, after collecting, should
> continue keeping that leg free and *wait for the next lead.
> I've often heard leads discuss the fact that sometimes followers will
> perform front boleos immediately after a back boleo, w/o waiting for it to
> be led. I've also heard followers talk about how frustrated their leads get
> b.c. they can't them to perform a series of back/front/back boleos. Any
> takers on starting up a new string?
I'll bite. (or was I the one who discussed it in the first place?;-) )
This drives me absolutely crazy. As I said, I'm of the belief that
boleos are strictly *lead* moves, not embellishments. You can do an
amague/front boleo as an embellishment after a back boleo, but, only
if it doesn't interfere with the next lead. What's worse, it becomes
so rote that it's done as a matter of course, always. Even good
embellishments shouldn't be done *all* the time, just as spice. Doing
them all the time detracts from them.
A series of front/back boleos (amague/boleos) is difficult to lead.
It involves leading a pivot and reversal of a pivot with very precise
timing, and very precise positioning. If you lead a pivot and then
lead the lady off her axis even a little bit, she's likely to step
rather than staying up on the one leg preparing to take another boleo.
This is a *leading* error. She *should* step in that case: she was
lead off that foot.
Unfortunately, some ladies I have danced with try to make up for this
by doing boleo after boleo when all I'm doing is standing there. This
is a bad idea. Doing anything "autopilot", even if it's what the lead
*wants* you to do, involves no real connection between the
lead/follow, and even tends to break the connection. Make the lead
lead it, or don't do it. If he doesn't know how to lead it, doing
itautomatically is not going to encourge him to learn how.
What I'm basically saying is, it's better to preserve the connection
and do what a lead didn't intend you to do, than it is to go against
an incorrect lead and do what they wanted you to do.
> giving their 2 cents worth on this. It's interesting to read the different
> takes.
Indeed...
> Abrazos,
> Mary de Seattle
Abrazos to you too,
Mike
Seattle->San Diego
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:36:08 EST
From: Marcelo Solis <MarceloTan @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Round" boleos
In a message dated 11/11/99 0:36:05 AM EST, laura.stevens @CANOEMAIL.COM
writes:
<< TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU >>
Round boleos can be leading and also can be a folower choice. She should
play atention becouse this kind of boleos are dangerous in a crowded dance
floor.
The leader can ask for them, giving a circular movement to his leading.
The regular boleo is not one kind of boleo. There are, we can say, different
degrees in the level that the follower lift her leg. Basicaly boleo is a
change of direccion in the pivot.
Marcelo
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:23:41 EST
From: Janell Banit <Jbanit @AOL.COM>
Subject: Boleos - A Follower's Perspective
Mary,
Thank you for your comments on boleos. I have been waiting with interest to
see what might be written in response to the discussion of "round" versus
"regular" boleos. You added some technical explanation that I found very
helpful.
I am a few months short of dancing tango as a follower for two years.
Technically correct boleos have been the most difficult thing I have
attempted to master. I did learn that the essence of the movement was
effortless with the leg swinging freely from the hip, as an extension of the
inertia generated by the lead. What I have had difficulty learning is the
exact moment at which I should exert control over the otherwise effortless
movement to create calm and beautiful collection.
I have observed the difference between stabbing (or angular) and circular
(which I prefer to round) motion to back boleos. I have not understood why a
difference existed, other than perhaps an intention by the follower to create
this difference. I think circular back boleos are prettier, but am really
only able to create them in practice, with intention, in front of a mirror.
Boleos are not led frequently in the city I dance. Most of the followers
doing them do so without a lead as a form of embellishment. Though this is
possible, I think to do them without a lead compromises the quality of the
boleo. Perhaps others are able to do what I am not, which is spontaneously
create the inertia required to perform the movement correctly from the hip
without effort.
I continue to work on boleos as I have opportunity, attempting to cultivate a
circular movement to back boleos when possible. But more importantly, I try
to achieve ease and relaxation in the movement so it is something I
experience rather than something I do. Thank you for your comments.
Janell
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:34:20 +0800
From: Juan Rando <juan @STARWON.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Boleos - A Follower's Perspective (long)
Hi all,
> Mike Wrote :
> I've seen some people teach who did the boleo like Larry de LA
> described the "normal" - a "flick". IMO, they're not nearly as nice
> at the "rounded" boleos (which Seattle dancers tend to do almost
> exclusively, thanks to the influence of many good teachers. Okay, I'm
> a little partial ;-)). I think that it lacks the finesse and
> smoothness, too. It doesn't "feel" as nice, connection-wise. The
> "rounded" boleos come about for a very specific reason, as explained
> by Fabian Salas, and here by Mary. The "flick" ones, in my opinion,
> are more forced (by the follow), less lead. I'm of the belief that
> boleos are stricly lead moves, not embellishments performed by the
> follower.
>
I agree with Mike here. I find that the "Flick" type boleos often create too much
horizontal force in the follower's body that she will "jerk" the man's body while
executing this style. A "round" boleo diminishes that horizontal force and
creates a lot smoother boleo.
> Mary wrote :
> For the sake of clariry, I've come to understand that a lot of people
> refer to a front boleo as an "amague".
>
Could someone tell me where/why the word "amague" started being used for the front
boleos. I tend to relate to things in terms of the lead required to execute them,
which is why I don't distinguish between front and back boleos, conceptually.
> Mary wrote :
> > I'm not saying collecting isn't important. In fact, it's critical to
> > collect your knees and ankles, but not until *after the boleo has reached
> > the height of it's arc and begun it's return. If the follower is concerned
> > about keeping her knees collected throughout the boleo, the movement is cut
> > short and becomes tense and clumsy, not to mention dangerous as she may risk
> > torqueing her body in order to keep those knees locked.
> > The same results would occur if the follower was too focused on the idea
> > of how the boleo should "look", and altered the natural pendulum movement by
> > controlling her leg, say by adding a "flick", a "stab" or attempting to
> > "round out" the boleo.
>
Here I have to disagree. Collecting the knees together has to occur well before
the the leg has reached the height of its arc. Basically before it leaves the
ground. Torgueing the body is a part of executing a good boleos in my opinion.
As long as it is controlled, like all other aspects of dancing. Part of dancing
is learning to make something that is not natural, become natural, with practise
and understanding.
>
> This tends to be what I feel as a lead when a follow does the "flick"
> version (as opposed to the rounded version). I hesitate to call the
> "flick" version the "regular" version (as did Larry de LA), since I
> learned the rounded version as "regular" and I personally think it's a
> nicer boleo.
> Mike wrote :
> I'll bite. (or was I the one who discussed it in the first place?;-) )
>
> This drives me absolutely crazy. As I said, I'm of the belief that
> boleos are strictly *lead* moves, not embellishments. You can do an
> amague/front boleo as an embellishment after a back boleo, but, only
> if it doesn't interfere with the next lead. What's worse, it becomes
> so rote that it's done as a matter of course, always. Even good
> embellishments shouldn't be done *all* the time, just as spice. Doing
> them all the time detracts from them.
>
I dont's agree that boleos are strictly lead moves. A woman with good timing and
foot speed should be free to incorporate the odd boleo. I should distinguish at
the stage, what I call social boleos. A social boleo (for want of a better word)
is one that stays of the floor and simply traces an arc. These can make great
embellishments for the ladies
>
> A series of front/back boleos (amague/boleos) is difficult to lead.
> It involves leading a pivot and reversal of a pivot with very precise
> timing, and very precise positioning. If you lead a pivot and then
> lead the lady off her axis even a little bit, she's likely to step
> rather than staying up on the one leg preparing to take another boleo.
> This is a *leading* error. She *should* step in that case: she was
> lead off that foot.
>
> Unfortunately, some ladies I have danced with try to make up for this
> by doing boleo after boleo when all I'm doing is standing there. This
> is a bad idea. Doing anything "autopilot", even if it's what the lead
> *wants* you to do, involves no real connection between the
> lead/follow, and even tends to break the connection. Make the lead
> lead it, or don't do it. If he doesn't know how to lead it, doing
> itautomatically is not going to encourge him to learn how.
>
> > Abrazos,
> > Mary de Seattle
>
> Abrazos to you too,
> Mike
> Seattle->San Diego
>
OOOOOO
Juan Rando
Perth, Western Australia
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:07:45 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: "Round" boleos
Lorena teaches the boleo with the knee of the free leg touching the back of
the knee of the weight bearing leg, keeping the knees in this position
throughout the movement. Her followers classes drill this a lot. I'm no
expert on leading, but as a follower I believe the nature of the movement -
circular or straight - comes from the lead. I have danced with experienced
leaders and found myself doing the circular movement more or less to my
surprise. Less experienced leaders either don't get the perfect timing or
the torque is incorrect to produce that effect.
One of our local teachers is careful to teach the boleos low, very close to
the floor in his crowded classes. Unfortunately, people often forget to be
equally careful on a crowded dance floor, and it can be dangerous!
It is REALLY important to follow the advice about not assuming the weight
should now go on the "boleo" leg, as the leader may well have something else
in mind. Of course, waiting, rather than anticipating, is one of the most
important things any milonguera should learn.....
cheers!
Melinda
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:33:08 -0800
From: Mike Hamilton <mikeh @MPL.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Boleos - A Follower's Perspective (long)
On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Juan Rando wrote:
> > Mary wrote :
> > For the sake of clariry, I've come to understand that a lot of people
> > refer to a front boleo as an "amague".
>
> Could someone tell me where/why the word "amague" started being used for the front
> boleos. I tend to relate to things in terms of the lead required to execute them,
> which is why I don't distinguish between front and back boleos, conceptually.
I wish I knew. I prefer the "front boleo" term better, too - since
they're conceptually the same thing (a reversal of the pivot).
> > Mary wrote :
> > > I'm not saying collecting isn't important. In fact, it's critical to
> > > collect your knees and ankles, but not until *after the boleo has reached
> > > the height of it's arc and begun it's return. If the follower is concerned
> > > about keeping her knees collected throughout the boleo, the movement is cut
> > > short and becomes tense and clumsy, not to mention dangerous as she may risk
> > > torqueing her body in order to keep those knees locked.
> > > The same results would occur if the follower was too focused on the idea
> > > of how the boleo should "look", and altered the natural pendulum movement by
> > > controlling her leg, say by adding a "flick", a "stab" or attempting to
> > > "round out" the boleo.
>
> Here I have to disagree. Collecting the knees together has to occur well before
> the the leg has reached the height of its arc. Basically before it leaves the
> ground. Torgueing the body is a part of executing a good boleos in my opinion.
> As long as it is controlled, like all other aspects of dancing. Part of dancing
> is learning to make something that is not natural, become natural, with practise
> and understanding.
This is kind of wierd to try to explain in words... the hips and upper
leg torque, with a little bit of freedom in the lower leg. The lower
leg responds to the motion of the upper leg, as Mary explained, and
gets whipped back. In a normal reversal-of-the-pivot boleo, the knees
stay together, but, it works a little bit better if the boleo-leg knee
moves behind the other knee just a little and then comes back to
"collected". (This is getting a bit too detailed to describe in
words...)
This is a good explanation:
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Melinda Bates wrote:
> Lorena teaches the boleo with the knee of the free leg touching the
> back of the knee of the weight bearing leg, keeping the knees in
> this position throughout the movement. Her followers classes drill
> this a lot.
You can also do a boleo straight back - somewhat trickier. In this
case, the thigh definately goes back and leads the lower leg back to
being collected at the end of the arc. But, this isn't a reversal of
a pivot, per se, it's a response to an abrupt (and immaculately timed)
reversal of direction. (Okay, it's also pretty deadly on a social
floor, since the lady's leg flies up backwards pretty quick and high).
True of all boleos, like Melinda wrote:
> One of our local teachers is careful to teach the boleos low, very
> close to
> the floor in his crowded classes. Unfortunately, people often
> forget to be
> equally careful on a crowded dance floor, and it can be dangerous!
You can do a nice low boleo, close to the floor. This is largely a
follow decision, but, can be indicated by the lead as well. If the
lead really twists hard on the reversal of the pivot, chances are the
follow will do a bigger boleo. So, when leading on a crowded floor, I
try to reverse the direction a little more gently on the boleo. As
often as not, this results in no boleo at all, but, still gets the job
done of changing direction and feels nice, too (and no boleo at all is
better than a boleo which disables adjacent dancers for the rest of
the night, too).
> > Mike wrote :
> > I'll bite. (or was I the one who discussed it in the first place?;-) )
> >
> > This drives me absolutely crazy. As I said, I'm of the belief that
> > boleos are strictly *lead* moves, not embellishments. You can do an
> > amague/front boleo as an embellishment after a back boleo, but, only
> > if it doesn't interfere with the next lead. What's worse, it becomes
> > so rote that it's done as a matter of course, always. Even good
> > embellishments shouldn't be done *all* the time, just as spice. Doing
> > them all the time detracts from them.
>
> I dont's agree that boleos are strictly lead moves. A woman with good timing and
> foot speed should be free to incorporate the odd boleo. I should distinguish at
> the stage, what I call social boleos. A social boleo (for want of a better word)
> is one that stays of the floor and simply traces an arc. These can make great
> embellishments for the ladies
Okay, this is true. But, the problem is a boleo tends to be (not
always) a large movement which you can't really do fast enough to "fit
in there". A really good follow, or one that does a low-boleo...
okay, that works as an embellishment. But, still, it's not really an
embellishment if you do it *every* time. Which is why I'm so peevish
about it - I've danced with too many people lately who do it every
time I do a boleo. Maybe it's just me...
One more response to Melinda:
> It is REALLY important to follow the advice about not assuming the
> weight should now go on the "boleo" leg, as the leader may well have
> something else in mind. Of course, waiting, rather than anticipating,
> is one of the most important things any milonguera should learn.....
This is true, and it happens often enough. But, just as often, the
lead tends to take her off of the weight-bearing leg by accident...
So, again, the lead's fault as often as not.
If you've read this far, thanks!
Mike
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:58:32 -0500
From: Eugenia Spitkovsky <euginas @EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Boleos - A Follower's Perspective
Brannigan, Mary wrote:
> I've also heard followers talk about how frustrated their leads get
> b.c. they can't them to perform a series of back/front/back boleos. Any takers on starting up a new string?
Clearly explained boleos, Mary! Thank you.
Leaders' frustration with followers' performance of back/front, etc.,
boleos, when they were not lead to do so, tells me that leaders' concern
was not with the pleasure of dancing tango with a partner, but rather
with the control of the steps they planned for the follower to execute.
To me this is not dancing. Practice, perhaps. I am not saying that
followers should just do what they want regardless of the lead. Not at
all.
During his workshop in Washington D.C.(which was excellent), Tioma, "El
Ruso", made an important point: if a leader dances well, he knows where
the follower's weight is at any time of the dance. To make the dance
enjoyable for a follower, the leader must adjust his steps to give
certain freedom of movement to the follower.
This understanding of each others body movements without words makes
tango TANGO. I love watching choreographed dances with professional
dancers' front/back/front, etc. boleos. Simplicity and clearity of
movement is what makes professional tango dancers so beautiful. Not the
number of embelishments counts, but how precise they are.
Eugenia
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------> REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to
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End of TANGO-L Digest - 11 Nov 1999 to 12 Nov 1999 (#1999-61)
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