The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 1 Nov 1999
to 2 Nov 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:00:21 -0500
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 1 Nov 1999 to 2 Nov 1999 (#1999-52)
There are 11 messages totalling 490 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Men teaching men/smoothness. (2)
2. Smoothness, Legato and Staccato
3. Metin
4. Mem teaching men (2)
5. Bandoneon for auction on eBay
6. extreme and unkind remarks, was: Re: Mem teaching men
7. Piazzolla for dancing - Was: Men teaching men/smoothness.
8. Tango Professor Certifications
9. Dancing to Astor
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Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:57:24 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Men teaching men/smoothness.
First of all, my own opinion about men learning to
follow has somewhat shifted after following this thread
and may be I will write about it sometime(after all those
who argued for it -- pretty much everyone -- would like
to know their words were not entirely wasted :-)
Smoothness does not seem to have much to do with
men leading or following but it seems all the intersting
stuff must be dicussed under this topic...
I guess that may be the best way to judge what
kind of leading something is would be to look at
the effect it has on the follower.
If the leading is gentle, the follower is comfortable and
feels as if (s)he is being rocked in a cradle and is
going to go to sleep in the leader's arms while
dancing, perhaps it is the 'smooth style'. And,
in a smooth style the moves that follow other
moves are more predictable and each step is more
or less of the same size as the previous.
If the leading is such that the follower has to be
on the edge and be prepared for change in direction
and speed all the time, and the adrenaline is rushing,
and much attention has to be paid for intricate steps,
I would suppose perhaps it is rather an agressive/passionate
kind of style.
Obviously, these would be extremes and one is gentle
and agressive at various different points along the
song as the mood for the moment dectates.
On the other hand, it seems that all the beats of the
bandeon are lopsided-- with the stress at pressing of
the keys superimposed on the pressing of the
bandeon, at the start. This seems especially
pronounced in Piazzola. This would suggest that for
tango, the movement is not continuuous but some what
abrupt and crisp-- more coniform than curvey. By abrupt
I dont mean random but rather that the speed with which
the foot travels *within* a step, in a beat, is not
uniform but it either starts out fast and ends gently
or starts slowly and stops suddenly and steps themselves
are not always of the same size.
I feel smoothness is more suited to valse(since
in waltz one wants to float?) I have also noticed that
some followers who are very good at valse sometimes
complain there is not enough notice for a step
when dancing tango. I wonder if this is because
they are used to dancing valse style and dont like having
to be alert and be on the edge all the time or if it is
me or both. May be there is a whole different set
of reasons and my assumptions about valse are
wrong to begin with.
All this is a beginner's perspective -- I hope to
hear from the experts.
rajan.
Original Message-----
From: Edwin Svigals <svigals @CYBURBAN.COM>
Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:47 AM
>tangostud wrote:
>>
>> TimmyTango writes: "I sometimes feel Daniel Trenner doesn't get the
respect
>> he deserves. You might not like how he may do things, but who else
promotes
>> tango like him."
>>
>> In my opinion, there are very few men who want to dance like Trenner.
His
>> style of dancing is too feminine. He is a good salesman and he has
his
>> followers who like his way of teaching, but he could never, in my
opinion,
>> make it in Buenos Aires as a professional teacher or a dancer.
>Al, I think what you characterize as 'feminine' others might call
>controlled and graceful- (yeah, a man can be graceful - watch michael
>jordan in action)
>Daniel Trenner is S-M-O-O-T-H...
>
>Edwin
>-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Brondwin <jbrondwin @TELUS.NET>
Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 12:48 AM
Subject: feminine leader
>Al writes: " In my opinion, there are very few men who want to dance
>like Trenner. His style of dancing is too feminine. "
>As a novice dancer I am fascinated that there are opinions that a
style
>could be characterized as a masculine lead or a feminine lead. Could
you
>elaborate on what you believe is the difference between one and the
>other?
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:49:25 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Smoothness, Legato and Staccato
I agree with Rajan's assessment that one should dance the way that one
hears the music. Personally, I hear legato (curvey) lines in much of
the tango music that I listen and dance to. Of course, some
orchestras specialized in a more stacatto sound--such as those led by
Juan D'Arienzo and Rodolfo Biagi. Depending on the style of the
orchestra, I adjust my dancing and lead my partner accordingly.
I find the smoothness of movement and the lead to be independent of
whether the movement is stacatto or legato. I attempt to make my all
my dance movements smoothly, and I hope my lead remains smooth because
I would hate to be jerking my partner around.
By the way, I would hesitate to characterize Astor Piazolla's music as
staccato. His music has both staccato and legato elements.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:05:05 EST
From: Jack Karako <JKarako @AOL.COM>
Subject: Metin
Today is Metin Yazir's birth day.
I would like to send him my best wishes from NY. Happy birthday Metin and come back to US. We miss you.
Jak
www.BailaTango.com
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:52:08 +0100
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Mem teaching men
>TimmyTango writes: "I sometimes feel Daniel Trenner doesn't get the respect
>he deserves. You might not like how he may do things, but who else promotes
>tango like him."
>In my opinion, there are very few men who want to dance like Trenner. His
>style of dancing is too feminine.
What the heck do you mean by this? I must admit that I live in Europe and I
don't know D.T. personally, but I saw him dancing on videos and why his
style should be feminine I can't figure out. (I am a female follower, to
mention it, and just a few days ago decided to give up trying to understand
men at all, so maybe I just should let you go that way.)
But though I never took classes with him, I really think I have to defend
Daniel Trenner in one point: the videos he is promoting (and being sensible
enough to promote in PAL as well) are showing a wide range of different
styles and different teachers, from the Puglieses to Gustavo Naveira and
many others. Of course I don't think that one can learn to dance from videos
only, but having very good local teachers and attending workshops with
teachers from Argentina two or three times a year, the videos helped my
general understanding of Tango Argentino a lot, and practicing by them
besides regular classes is a lot of fun both for me and my partner.
Of course Trenner is earning money with them, but why shouldn't he -
wouldn't you do the same if you have the chance to? I am anything but
uncritical towards capitalism, but it has its advantages.
So there is at least a Tanguera in Austria who indeed is respecting Daniel
Trenners work.
Sabine
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:09:01 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Men teaching men/smoothness.
Ah, the fresh untainted eyes of the beginner, or in this case the ears.
Rajan, l think you will discover as your music knowledge and dancing
experience grows that people don't really dance to Piazzolla (with exceptions
of course). He is famous and his music is easy to find so it is natural to
gravitate to him but you will find he is barely the tip of the iceberg. Your
response was genuine because what you're hearing is indeed difficult to dance
to. Some of his songs are danceable but most of them are not. I admire
Piazzolla and like his music but no, I don't dance to it. The tango music
literature is vast with many composers, musicians, and even orchestra leaders
who gained renown for their original arrangements often creating entirely new
songs from established classics. Pugliese did that with the work of De Caro
and others and Carlos Di Sarli (yes, the same one from beginner class) did
that with just about every song he touched. And many others as well.
I liked your tender comments about smoothness in dancing but at the same time
you don't want to cradle too softly. A woman falling to sleep while dancing
tango with you might be something you wouldn't want everybody to know about
;-)
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:16:44 +0100
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Mem teaching men
Original Message-----
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 9:11 PM
>>TimmyTango writes: "I sometimes feel Daniel Trenner doesn't get the
respect
>>he deserves. You might not like how he may do things, but who else
promotes
>>tango like him."
>>In my opinion, there are very few men who want to dance like Trenner.
His
>>style of dancing is too feminine.
>
>What the heck do you mean by this? I must admit that I live in Europe
and I
>don't know D.T. personally, but I saw him dancing on videos and why his
>style should be feminine I can't figure out. (I am a female follower,
to
I have seen Daniel Trenner dance at milongas as well as have
seen him dance Tango for Jazz and I am quite impressed with
his dancing and creativity(although I may not be qualified
enough to judge it).
In so far as I find Al's comment(which you quote below TimmyTango's)
rather extreme (there are men who do want to dance like him-- quite a
few take classes with him) and unkind, it only goes to prove TimmyTango
might be right-- Daniel Trenner deserves more repsect than he is
given--
whether one likes him or not. If one does not like him, one could hate
him -- but not without respect.
It may be more useful to discuss topics about tango than about people.
rajan.
boston/paris.
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:51:11 -0300
From: Omar Facelli <ofacelli @ADINET.COM.UY>
Subject: Bandoneon for auction on eBay
Dear Tangoers,
Just a brief announcement of a "Doble A" (Alfred Arnold)
bandoneon just added on eBay for auction. Vintage, wonderful, complete
Mather-of-pearl handworked. Recently serviced and setup with brand new
case.
If interested check it out at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=192187945
Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back.
Thanks for your interest and support!
Omar Facelli
Tiempos Viejos Collectibles
P.O.Box 6045,
Montevideo,
Uruguay,
South America
Phones: (5982) 508 2881 // (5982) 506 7372
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:50:25 -0000
From: white95r <white95r @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: extreme and unkind remarks, was: Re: Mem teaching men
Original Message -----
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan @EMC.COM>
Hi Rajan,
> In so far as I find Al's comment(which you quote below TimmyTango's)
> rather extreme (there are men who do want to dance like him-- quite a
> few take classes with him) and unkind,
It's good that you wrote to attribute the negative comments to Tangostud,
the person who wrote them. Timmy was rather complimentary of D.T.
> It may be more useful to discuss topics about tango than about people.
I support your comments here. It is far more useful to discuss tango rather
than criticize contemporary teachers or dancers. We've had a number of
occasions in the past when discussions have degenerated into name calling
and mud slinging. I guess people are just too passionate about their
particular "tango beliefs" and react with animosity towards those who like a
different thing. Reminds me a lot of religious sects going at each other and
at people in general to either convert them or kill them! Like there can
only be "one way" and all others must be done away with.
Lets keep the tango discussion alive. If we cannot tolerate other's opinions
we can always disagree but as you said, with respect. Precious good comes
out of ridiculing or depreciating others for what they believe or for what
they are. As long as somebody is not defrauding others or causing harm there
is no need to challenge them or attack them personally.
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:21:16 -0700
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz @MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Piazzolla for dancing - Was: Men teaching men/smoothness.
Charles Roques wrote:
> Rajan, l think you will discover as your music knowledge and dancing
> experience grows that people don't really dance to Piazzolla (with exceptions
> of course).
. . .
> Some of his songs are danceable but most of them are not.
Charles,
Here in Denver, I deejay at our Friday milongas, except when
our band, Extasis, is playing. (BTW, they are GREAT!!!)
You probably would not believe the requests for Piazzolla!
They outnumber all other requests. Fulfilling one such
request even got me a box of fine truffles as a payoff.
(Hmmm...)
Libertango, Tanguedia III, Invierno Porteno and even Adios Nonino
are Piazzolla hits. Especially late at night, when only the
tango fanatics are left.
Visitors to Denver: Don't worry. The first several hours
are devoted to Biagi, D'Arienzo, De Angelis, Calo, Demare,
Tanturi, Castillo, Di Sarli, Canaro and others, with a little
salsa and swing mixed in, depending on the crowd. But that
last hour, well, anything goes, and it's heavy on El Arranque,
Color Tango, Forever Tango, Sexteto Mayor, Piazzolla, and
those spicy pieces brought in by my friends. The time
a friend brought Georg Friedrich Handel's Sarabande from
the Barry Lyndon soundtrack, well, that was unforgettable.
And danceable.
Abrazos,
Dave Schmitz
Denver, Colorado
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:23:12 -0800
From: Lee Sobo <lsobo @HOME.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Professor Certifications
I am a student at the school where ATMA resides. If talent is the measure
you seek, I can tell you that ATMA should be very well respected. I have not
seen anyone one more talented in any form of dancing than Ive and Ludmilla
Simard.
Original Message -----
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
To: <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 4:28 PM
Subject: Tango Professor Certifications
> Many of us are aware of some unscrupulous ballroom instructors who
> pretend to teach Argentine tango--and in some cases have used
> certification rules to prevent those who actually know Argentine
tango
> from teaching. We may be also aware of some Argentines who use their
> nationality and lessons (they call "training") from a well-regarded
> master as credentials to tour about teaching tango.
>
> In the past, several people have argued that certifications might
help
> prevent beginners from being misled about an instructor's
> qualifications. Several organizations now offer training in teaching
> tango along with tango teacher certifications. Two such
organizations
> are the Argentine Tango Master's Association (Ive Simard) and Bridge
> to the Tango (Daniel Trenner).
>
> One might argue that the training offered by these programs is
> worthwhile. For instance, Bridge to the Tango offered advanced
> training from Gustavo Naveira and Olga Besio in 1999 and will offer
> advanced training from Osvaldo Zotto and Lorena Ermocida in 2000.
>
> But does the formal certification itself really mean very much? I do
> not think so. For one thing, informal networks already provide a
> substitute for formal certification. I have observed that informal
> networks of dancers and professors in the tango community act very
> much like certifications. Those affiliated with the network and
> endorsed by either the top names, the local instructors, or the more
> skillful dancers in the network have an informal certification that
is
> probably more valuable than a piece of paper. Of course, those
> relying on a network must continue to maintain their standing, which
> is likely to require more skill and work than earning a piece of
> paper.
>
> Furthermore, in the arts--which tango is--talent alone provides
> sufficient credentials. Few certification processes truly reflect
> talent, instead they reflect the ability and willingness to do as one
> is told. With some judgement, a willingness to ask others, and
> exposure to real Argentine tango, most of us are completely able to
> judge whether a person can dance and teach real tango.
>
> --Steve de Tejas
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 02:11:16 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango @AOL.COM>
Subject: Dancing to Astor
Yes, of course people dance to Piazzolla and I often hear a song or two of
his at milongas but usually I don't hear him very much because a lot of his
music is not about being dance music. Perhaps on stage with rehearsed
choreography but not about dancing in the halls. It's about exploring the
tango genre and broadening it creatively and I welcome it but the creativity
can be distracting to dance to. I was trying to suggest to Rajan that
perhaps Piazzolla wasn't necessarily the best reference point to begin with
when thinking about his dancing.
Cheers,
Charles
End of TANGO-L Digest - 1 Nov 1999 to 2 Nov 1999 (#1999-52)
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