The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 14 Mar 1999
to 15 Mar 1999
Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 03:00:01 -0500
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 14 Mar 1999 to 15 Mar 1999
There are 10 messages totalling 574 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Question for Followers (2)
2. Trenner's Montreal tango week
3. Question for Followers (afterthought) (2)
4. Re[2]: Question for Followers
5. festival Argentino
6. practice makes perfect
7. Susana Miller/Was: Question for Followers/Comments re: tango milonguero
8. Tango in Amsterdam?
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:53:21 -0800
From: Kate Withey <withey @SFO.COM>
Subject: Re: Question for Followers
Regarding a woman's choice between dancing with the music, following a
leader who isn't, or trying to make him feel the rythm he isn't getting
-- Sorry, Pepito, but Ramiro is (unfortunately) more right here when he
says:
>>You must choose -- dance with the music "by yourself," or block out
>>the music and dance with your partner. An awkward dilemma, and I
>>can't blame a woman who chooses the music. Yet, I think choosing
>>to dance with your partner is closer to "tango."
When you (Pepito) say:
> But it is the art of the follower to make her sense of rhythm felt,
> giving the finishing touch to the process, and/or taking over "the
> rhythm section" when she feels the leader is in doubt. Dancing with
> ladies who can do this is for me THE complete dance experience,
> particularly when I have difficulties following the beat of a given
> orchestra and she can give me the key to understand it! A sublime
> communication experience!
...you are assuming a) that all men are as sensitive to their follower
as you talk of being, and b) that they are *aware* that they aren't
dancing to the music. Would that this were true. Too often, the fact
is that men do not dance in relation to the music at all. (For the
record, I'm not saying this is exclusive to men, they're just the ones
I dance with, so don't flame me on being sexist here.) It's the
perpetual problem of their concentrating on the patterns they want to
do, rather than just connecting to the music or their partner. When
dancing with such a lead, the follower really does feel this awful
choice: do I dance *with him* (which feels more like connection &
dancing, if not tango), or do I try to enforce some connection to the
music? The latter usually simply results in fighting with him, because
his perception isn't that I'm trying to let him hear the music through
me, but that I'm not following what -- or rather, exactly *when* --
he's leading. Now, it could be that I'm simply not skilled &/or subtle
enough to do this well, but I'm not a beginner, & I'm not talking about
men who are beginners, either. (With beginners, in fact, this is more
likely to work, because they often *are* aware that they don't know how
to relate to the music, or are too busy thinking about the steps, so
they do appreciate the help.) Sigh.
Kate Withey
"Great dancers are not great because of
their technique; they're great because
of their passion." - Martha Graham
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:53:51 -0800
From: Kate Withey <withey @SFO.COM>
Subject: Trenner's Montreal tango week
A follow-up to my comments on the July tango week in Montreal. Daniel,
Inc. saw my pro & con review of last year, and wanted me to let you know
that the cons I listed *have* been addressed. They promise more
practice space, bigger spaces, air conditioning, more venues, levels
etc. (It's still July, so it will be hot, but if you can't handle a
little heat, whatever you do, don't go to Buenos Aires!) So it should
be an even better week this year.
Kate
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:00:52 -0500
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Question for Followers
From: Kate Withey Sunday, March 14, 1999 1:53 PM
> Regarding a woman's choice between dancing with the music, following a
leader who isn't, or trying to make him feel the rythm he isn't getting
snip----------
> .... Too often, the fact
> is that men do not dance in relation to the music at all.
snip------
> ...When
> dancing with such a lead, the follower really does feel this awful
> choice: do I dance *with him* (which feels more like connection &
> dancing, if not tango), or do I try to enforce some connection to the
> music?
snippety snip-----------
> Too often, the fact
> is that men do not dance in relation to the music at all. (For the
> record, I'm not saying this is exclusive to men, they're just the ones
> I dance with, so don't flame me on being sexist here.)
My sympathies, Kate.
Absent a connection to the music, the connection to your partner, and the
unity of movement, would be just as good in a sack race as in tango.
Fortunately for us guys, we have a shot at controlling the movement, even
when we might have a partner who doesn't feel the connection with the
music. See, for example, the earlier thread on "Timing the cross," archived
in Garrit Fleischmann's pages:
http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~garrit/tango/art/cross2.html
Once we learn how to mark the movements, we can overcome any tendencies by
our partners to go astray. However, if the man is marking "off the music,"
I don't know what the woman can do to correct this. Perhaps a sharp blow to
the side of the head with a 2x4 every time we do it will have the desired
result, ultimately.
Suggestions a for non-violent solution are welcome.
Tangringo
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:19:59 -0500
From: "Walter M. Kane" <oldzeid @FRONTIERNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Question for Followers (afterthought)
From: Walter M. Kane (me!) Sunday, March 14, 1999 3:00 PM
> ... See, for example, the earlier thread on "Timing the cross," archived
> in Garrit Fleischmann's pages:
>
> http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~garrit/tango/art/cross2.html
>
If you need to reinforce, for yourself, the importance of the music
connection, see the thread on "A letter from Tete - dancing to the music"
at Garrit's archive:
http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~garrit/tango/art/tete.html
I partilcularly relate to like the quotations:
"Because tango is and always will be music and learning how to
walk it, to listen to it, to feel it...because it becomes a part of you
that
you cannot detach."
and
"Dance the music. Because the music is the tango."
Tangringo
____________________
Walter M. (Tangringo) Kane
Harriman, NY
oldzeid @frontiernet.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tango Lyrics in Spanish and English at
http://www.hooked.net/~tangoman/letras.htm
Por el fomento y progreso del Tango
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:43:55 -0800
From: Kate Withey <withey @SFO.COM>
Subject: Re: Question for Followers (afterthought)
Walter-
> Suggestions a for non-violent solution are welcome.
My usual solution is to not dance with him again.
> "Because tango is and always will be music and learning how to
> walk it, to listen to it, to feel it...because it becomes a part of you
> that you cannot detach."
> "Dance the music. Because the music is the tango."
I have found that this problem is rare among musicians & among Argentine
men in general. People who have grown up with the rythms of tango music
as part of the fabric of their life (even if they've never danced it), or
people who are immersed in music in general, are able clearly to connect
to it more easily. The problem remains because tango music really is
foreign to those of us from N America or Europe, & it takes a long time
to figure it out. When I first came to tango, I couldn't for the life of
me understand the relationship of the dance to the music, even though I
loved it. Nobody ever said this endeavor was easy!...
Kate
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:09:34 -0600
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re[2]: Question for Followers
Walter wrote:
>Fortunately for us guys, we have a shot at controlling the movement,
>even when we might have a partner who doesn't feel the connection
>with the music. ...Once we learn how to mark the movements, we can
>overcome any tendencies by our partners to go astray.
Can is the operational word in Walter's statement. In my opinion,
controlling the movements of a follower who wants to move more quickly
or more slowly than the beat destroys all the sublety in marking the
steps and greatly limits the enjoyment of sharing a tango.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:03:45 -0500
From: John Kleer <stellamilano @EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: festival Argentino
Dear List:
---
Finalmente El Festival Argentino en Miami el D=EDa Domingo 2 de Mayo, de
1999.
De 12.00 PM a Medianoche en Bayfront Park, Miami El Primer Festival
Argentino en Miami. El programa incluir=E1 el Tango, Folklore, Pop y
Rock,de renombrados artistas Argentinos. Los asistentes podr=E1n saborear
las comidas bebidas t=EDpicas,que se vender=E1n, en distintos puestos en
el
parque.Seg=FAn datos del Bayfront Park, donde se realizan festivales de
distintas nacionalidades, el "Festival Argentino", podr=E1 contar con un
estimado de 30.000 personas, incluyendo p=FAblico se todas las
nacionalidades, que viven =F3 visitan Miami.
Ser=E1 el festival Argentino m=E1s grande fuera de la Argentina.Los
artistas confirmados son;
Enanitos Verdes
Autenticos Decadentes
Luis A.Spinetta
Alejandro Lerner
Miguel Mateos
Javier Calamaro
Man Ray
Celeste Carballo
Stella Milano(tango)
Distintas figuras del Tango y folclore
El ballet de Tango de la pelicula evita(madonna)
Camerata Porte=F1a(Tango
Los bailarines de tango y profesionales cantantes que deseen participar
contactarse con Tel=E9fono: 305-358-9911/379-5549
Fax: 305-358-1986
Email: coneargent @aol.com enrique200 @aol.com=20
Direcci=F3n: 905 Brickel Bay Drive Ste.822, Miami, Fl 33131
Para contactos en Buenos Aires:
MARIA WATSON / MATIAS SCHNEER 14 de Julio 1333 piso 15 dpto."E"
Capital Federal (1427)Republica argentina telefax : (54 11) 4 551-0279
email: mariaw @interserver.com
La cerveza Quilmes es el patrocinador oficial del evento.=20
El festival abrir=E1 a la 12:00 del mediod=EDa y tendremos a primera hor
a
folclore, luego a partir de las 3:30 el festival de Tango y de las 5:30
a las 12 de la noche el festival de Rock & Pop. Todo con figuras de
primer
nivel, adem=E1s tendremos un sector de ni=F1os patrocinado por el equipo
de
futbol
Miami Fusion. De los puestos de venta; actualmente existe gente en lista
de
espera, tenemos 26 espacios disponibles, para la venta de cualquier
producto argentino, parrilladas, empanadas, panqueques, etc). Asi que si
Usted tambi=E9n est=E1
interesados en informaci=F3n acerca de las exposiciones, ll=E1menos, tal
vez
podamos ....ayudarnos Desde ya, necesitamos voluntarios, en las
distintas ramas:Modelos, seguridad, back stage, sonidistas,
bailarinas/nes, periodistas, relaciones p=FAblicas, ayudantes de grupos,
maquilladores/as, imitadores,
etc.
Los esperamos.
Gracias
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:52:51 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <manuelp @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: practice makes perfect
Subject: Re: Question for Followers/Comments
> Ramiro wrote:
snip
>>With a particularly felicitous pairing of dancers, the leader can
>>adjust the length of the follower's step at this point. (I haven't
>>had much luck here.)
>
>This example shows why going to a practice can be important to developing
>skills. Few teachers explicitly work on leading step length in their
>classes, and a milonga is not really the best time to develop new skills.
>
snip
>--Steve de Tejas
I cannot agree more with Steve. Attending practice sessions is the most
important thing a dancer can do to improve. Ronda & I have noticed that the
best dancers are those who come to the beginner level classes as well as the
more advanced, always come to practice and dance with a variety of partners.
We have noticed that those students who leave immediately after the class
ends and do not stay for practice seem to have more difficulty learning to
dance. Also, those who never switch partners in class invariably have more
difficulties and rarely continue past one session of classes.
As with most endeavors, improving one's dancing is 10% inspiration and 90%
perspiration ;-) (pun intended).
Nearly all of the topics and questions brought to this forum can be best
answered by attending an lot of classes at and below one's level and
practicing as much as possible. Actually, practicing one's dancing can be,
and often is, very pleasurable. Go for it!
Manuel
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:30:41 -0500
From: danny waggoner <dwag @MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Susana Miller/Was: Question for Followers/Comments re: tango milonguero
The recent thread on milonguero has referred to Susana Miller, who teaches
regularly in BsAs and tours N. America and Europe each year. The following
is posted for those with an interest in knowing more about her views on tango.
Regards, Danny Waggoner
www.tango-atlanta.com
A version of this article has appeared in Buenos Aires magazine El Tanguata.
Thanks for translation by Barbara Durr.
To Die on the Dance Floor
By Susana Miller
In its dance version, the rhythmic basis of tango corresponds to its black
origins, and as in
everything that blacks danced in the Americas, they brought it from Africa.
Without this
rhythmic basis, Cuba's "son," black jazz or tango would not be what they are.
To dance the spirit of tango implies understanding its rhythmic complexity,
how the beats
are grouped, where the half-beats are, how the rhythmic variations are
resolved. The
longer variations are not danceable because this music loses the "chan
chan," and like
Hansel and Gretel, it's difficult to find the way home. The heart serves as
the home of
music. The music of Piazzola is great to listen to but not to dance to,
like roses are
beautiful to see but not to eat. This is not to say that it wouldn't be an
interesting
challenge or that it cannot be danced to. But the rules of art are beyond
ease or difficulty.
Artists create because their hearts burst, the creation is a product of
necessity, not of
power. Art is sensual, fun, but serious. Art is an outsized act that
begins with a feeling
that is also outsized, and it is rendered with the soul on the tips of its
toes. Art heeds
dreams, recreates reality and carries us to a more beautiful star. That is
why we dance.
In shorter rhythmic variations, the beat is recognizable, and it sounds in
the heart like a
drumhead and runs through the body. In the longer rhythmic variations, the
beat vanishes
like a ghost, nothing sounds in the heart and nothing runs through the body.
It's useless
to intellectually pursue the beat, that's searching for something that
doesn't exist with a
mistaken method. The resonance box works with a rule that is directly
proportional: the
greater the rhythmic mass the greater the emotional acoustic memory, and the
richer the
dance. To step on the beat is like ringing a bell with a hammer, it is on
the beat or it's
off. It must be precise. The only license that can be taken with the rhythm
is to group the
beats in different ways.
Everyone can dance given that there are efficient methods to listen to and
understand
music. But he who doesn't understand his rhythmic model will not be able to
dance even
if he knows lots of choreographic combinations. With respect to space,
circulation on the
dance floor is movement from one place to another or turning, and proceeding
in a
counter-clockwise direction. While salon tango has infinite choreographic
possibilities, it
allows no "free kicks": the figures and walks must respect the rhythmic and
spacial
coordinates, without which the tango becomes something strange and
disconnected, like a
person who goes to an appointment one day after or one day before and to the
wrong
place.
When show dancers dance on a social dance floor, they are social dancers.
Why do some
people pretend to dance on the dance floor as if they were doing an exhibition?
Abroad one can see people over 25 years of age without any previous physical
training
doing complex figures that show dancers perform on stage, and it is
pathetic. Stages
have lines, diagonals that are agreed upon, so that the dancers move where
they are best
viewed. The stage has a single view, and dance floors for exhibitions have
three or four.
The dancers have stage experience and they know well what they must do on stage.
Movement on a social dance floor is very complex and different. The social
dancer
knows the secrets of this dynamic and moves around the floor impeccably.
Sometimes
the woman turns around him while he apparently does not move, other times
the couple
moves through incredibly tight spaces and goes right to the line of dance
without missing
a single beat or bumping into anybody.
The musical arrangements for stage dancing are prepared especially for how
the dancers
want to do their choreographies. The social dancer does just the opposite:
he adapts his
choreography to the music as it is already written. The stage dancer dances
to be seen,
the social dancer for pleasure. While the social dancer is a "compadre" and
likes to be
admired by onlookers, the proportion between pleasure and being watched
marks the
difference between the social dancer and the stage performer.
The salon dancer dances on the dance floor all his life. For him, the tango
is a therapy
and a big party.
The difference between experienced social dancers and the current students
of tango is
that the former mixed their cocktail of steps and music simultaneously and
the latter give
priority to choreography and pay little attention to the music. Good
dancers are made,
not born, each "natural" movement has taken hours of training and practice.
Those who won't change their idea that the quantity of steps constitutes the
quality of the
dance will always be beginners with new steps, and they will never
understand why the
social dancer wants to die on the dance floor.
Many young people are investigating the tango, and that is good because what
is alive is
in motion. But one thing is the investigation of tango, the other is the
tango itself. On the
social dance floor, people get out of their way because they take oversized
steps and lift
their knees. Sometimes these hurricanes wait until after 3 in the morning
to dance, given
that it is impossible to share the floor with them, and when the dance floor
empties
somewhat, the laboratory is theirs. Today, and for the safety of feet and
ankles, dance
salons are divided in Buenos Aires. There are younger places where the
"baby tango"
predominates, and there are places where older people dance that don't
exclude younger
dancers and some foreigners who understand social dancing.
Other foreigners visit Buenos Aires and only go to the places where the
young people
dance, so they end up believing that the tango in Buenos Aires is the same
one they dance
in their native lands-and they are right because they did not see tango in
Buenos Aires.
The Europeans who have danced for more than five years don't go to the
dances full of
new enthusiasts because they have become bored with dancing so many years
without
discovering the main dish of tango. They stayed in the appetizers. And the
saddest thing
is that they don't know that they don't know. They think that they have
reached the final
stage with tango, so they become tired of it. Many stop dancing.
It would be good if the European experience could serve American dancers.
The newest
dancers have fewer cards played in the exhibition tango, are less committed
to this type
of tango because they have invested less time in studying it and may have
the courage to
do what makes women happy in the dance. These dancers will discover sooner
or later
why the social dancers of Buenos Aires want to die dancing. Sooner or
later, they will
enter the delirium of Orpheus, and they will be happy with that.
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:14:18 -0500
From: Helaine Treitman <treitman @GIOTTO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango in Amsterdam?
Daniel,
Try:
Amsterdam Tango Agenda: http://www.xs4all.nl/~disegno/tango/amsterda.html
Chau,
Helaine
--The International School of Art in Umbria, Italy
06057 Montecastello di Vibio PG Italy
Tel / Fax +39-075-8780223 US Voicemail 212-386-2705
From December 10 - April 10 in US:
Tel. 941-594-9449 Fax 941-514-4046
http://www.giotto.org/ email: treitman @giotto.org
On Tuesday, March 09, 1999 12:37 PM, Daniel Hurley
[SMTP:d.hurley @AUCKLAND.AC.NZ] wrote:
> listeros and listeras,
>
> A good friend of mine is about to move to Amsterdam (actually, my long-time
> partner - sniff). I'd like to hear from anyone and everyone about the
> tango scene there - about milongas, classes, teachers, whatever - I'm
> listening, on or off the list.
>
> merci,
>
> Daniel
End of TANGO-L Digest - 14 Mar 1999 to 15 Mar 1999
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