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Digest from 30 Jun 1999
to 1 Jul 1999
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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:00:25 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 30 Jun 1999 to 1 Jul 1999
There are 8 messages totalling 399 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. New tango, old pizza dough (Salas, Chicho, Naveira)
2. Help -- Where can we go for Milonga in Montreal ?
3. New Tango...
4. Tango in London, Ontario, Canada
5. New Tango
6. TangoKinetics
7. [Fwd:Grandma]
8. About the term "New Tango"
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:46:45 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al @BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: New tango, old pizza dough (Salas, Chicho, Naveira)
Tom Stermitz wrote:
> Close embrace tango plays with very subtle leads, slight wiggles, traded
> decorations, and a game of cat-and-mouse between the leader and follower,
> that you just don't get to do with the big, liquid tango.
I don't see this as being a function of close-embrace or open-frame
tango -- in particular, I know lots of close embrace milongueros who are
extremely bland, and I tend to do the things you ascribe to
close-embrace tango in *any* connection I have with my partner (I think
I'm pretty infamous for that ;) ).
It is true, however, that dancing in a dull way is more glaringly
obvious to the outside world when you do *not* dance a close embrace.
And it *is* much harder to lose the connection to your partner in close
embrace, too, while it requires much more effort to maintain a
connection with an open frame. If you lose the connection, playing with
subtle leads etc. indeed becomes impossible.
Plus, close embrace tango *forces* you to dance in a more simple but
subtle way (which can become playful, unles you make it bland), while
open frame tango seems to induce some leaders into a folly of
complicated steps (giros with enrosques, a few ganchos thrown in for the
leader, lots of saccadas -- wait, I've forgotten to insert a barrida
somewhere ;) ) they do not yet master -- again, that means they lose the
possibility for these more subtle things.
I've had the plasure of seeing Sergio Molini and Gisella Graef dance an
open embrace tango that was nothing but play -- and to top it off,
without *external* music, with their dance emanated a music and a
breathing of its own (by the energy that was bundled and released in an
ebb and flow). The comments of some: "they're always doing the same
steps". Sigh.
I dance both forms of tango with equal pleasure, and there is a
fundamental difference (at least, I *feel* entirely different -- I can't
dance close embrace with people I don't trust entirely either). But it
is not in the way it allows for this subtle interplay of leader,
follower, and music.
>
> I agree with the critics that performing the New Tango requires tremendous
> technical skill. It takes us away from social tango which mere mortal
> should be able to learn.
>
It all depends on what you do. If by "new tango" you mean completely
shredding the tango vocabulary to parts and reassembling the elements in
a new way -- yes, it requires mastery of the old form *first*. That
doesn't mean you can't apply some elements of it in your dance even when
you are "a mere mortal", as long as you are humble enough not to
overreach.
--
<standard disclaimer: these are my personal views, not SGI's>
Alexis Cousein al @brussels.sgi.com
Systems Engineer SGI Belgium
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:04:34 -0400
From: Pascale Guilloux <guilloux.rivest @SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Help -- Where can we go for Milonga in Montreal ?
Bonjour
Montr=E9al is a very good place to dance Tango, so for those who plan a v=
isit us this
summer, here is a list of all the Milongas I know in Montr=E9al.
Academie de Tango Argentin:
4445, Boul. St Laurent
(514) 840-9246
Web Site: http://www.academietangoargentin.com/
La Tangueria:
5390, Boul. St Laurent
(514) 495-8645
Web Site: http://www.generation.net/~tangueri/index.htm
Studio Tango Montr=E9al:
1447, rue Bleury
(514) 844-2786
Web Site: http://www.total.net/~stutango/page10.html
Tango Libre
1650, rue Marie-Anne Est
(514) 527-5197
Web Site: http://www.tangolibre.qc.ca/
Tango Nuestro:
4848, Boul. St Laurent
(514) 735-7990
Web Site: http://www.tango.montreal.qc.ca/nuestro.htm
Milonga in Qu=E9bec city
Argentine Tango Association:
Web Site: http://www.crh.ulaval.ca/tangoquebec/index.html
Have fun...
Pascale Guilloux
> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:42:52 -0400
> From: Asta Chen <Asta_Chen @HARVARDPILGRIM.ORG>
> Subject: Help -- Where can we go for Milonga in Montreal ?
>
> Bon Jour,
>
> My tango friends and I would like to go to Montreal during the July 4th=
weekend.
> We will leave Boston on Friday early morning and come back on Monday ev=
ening. We
> want to know where we can go for milonga in Montreal in between 7/2 -- =
7/5, out
> door and indoor are all welcome? Also, Is there any workshop going on? =
Who is
> the teacher, price and schedule? And, where we can stay, motel, reasona=
ble price
> and reasonable distance?
>
> Any information is appreciated and many thanks to you.
>
> Asta Chen
>
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:01:25 +0200
From: Peter Niebert <Peter.Niebert @IMAG.FR>
Subject: Re: New Tango...
Dear Melinda and others interested in continuing this discussion, now
strictly on an abstract level, no particular people in mind.
> But there is a really important question here. If these famous, traveling
> tango masters really do behave as badly as I am being told, if women and men
> are being injured by their behavior off the dance floor, what, if anything,
> is our responsibility there?
I do not think there is anything in particular to be done. There is
always a choice whome you want to invite, the price (in various
senses) you are willing to pay etc. Everyone follows their own
preferences there and there is enough market for all of the masters
and there are enough masters for all preferences.
What I wrote probably touches my own preference, in the current
discussion a matter of personality: There are true masters of Tango,
who have nevertheless remained accessible in a certain sense. I adore
that.
> What is the responsibility of the man or woman who freely chooses to be
> subject to this bad behavior? Are we to be the tango police?
Not at all. In dancing, you choose the partner you want and who agrees
to dance with you. This is equally true for men and women, waiting to
be invited can be a rather active thing, inviting can mean to accept
an invitation.
Dancing with whom you want! Some people in my French neighbourhood
here do not agree to that, but I think it is the only way!
***
It may be a bit different if you are organizer and in charge of
deciding whom to invite for a workshop. This will have an influence on
your dancing community. You manipulate it, whether you want to or not.
Peter
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:07:05 -0500
From: Ernest Pile <espile @WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Tango in London, Ontario, Canada
I will be in London, Ontario, Canada (southwest of Toronto) during the
week of 19 July. Can anyone direct me to a milonga, Tango Salon or
Latin Salsa Club there?
Thank you, Ernest
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:06:17 -0500
From: Stephen P Brown <Stephen.P.Brown @DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: New Tango
Perhaps it is inevitable that some choose to examine new tango through
the personalities of its leading exponents. Personally, I find that
doing so is mostly beside the point.
Given the negative comments that some observers have offered about new
tango itself, it is not surprising that it would take individuals with
extraordinary (and perhaps single-minded) vision to develop liquid
tango to the extent that Gustavo and Fabian have. Individuals with
extraordianry vision often have visible character flaws, which have
been amplified in the process of creating. All highly creative
individuals have dark sides.
That someone would recommend that we reject innovative elements in
tango because its creators have dark sides is completely predictable.
In any field, the work of individuals with extraordinary vision
challenges the orthodoxy. Those who are insecure--perhaps because
they lack creativity themselves--find it easier to criticize the new
masters at a personal level. "How could you dance like that creep?"
Fortunately, history is not particularly kind to criticism. As the
critics of new developments in a field retire or die, a new generation
of individuals will evaluate the proposed innovations on their own
merit without regard to what was the orthodoxy of the older
generation. Liquid tango may become the tango of a new generation, or
it may disappear. Its critics will be forgotten.
Personally, I am evaluating the new elements on their own merits. If
my dance partners and I like them, we use them in our dancing. If we
don't, we won't use them. If the new elements speak to a great number
of dancers, they will be widely adopted and tango will gradually
change. If the new elements speak only to a few, they will die out.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:39:55 -0400
From: Matej Oresic <matej.oresic @CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: TangoKinetics
I have yet to see a tango dancer who is inspiring enough to bring the
"New Tango" to the level of great dancing. It looks to me that what is
called "new tango" is merely an analysis of movement, which regenerated
steps milongueros (many of them gone by now) were able to do in much
less casual fashion, but on the positive side does indeed offer a good
method for generating new steps.
This kind of "new tango" movements are not dependent on music, and might
have been danced even by cavemen and cavewomen (caveleaders and
cavefollowers, to be correct) million years ago, so the term "new tango"
is really not justified. This by no means demonstrates my disrespect for
the style. I think it does have some general applicable qualities in
terms of couple movement and mutual balance, and in this way the style
does contribute something to the tango. Neither my dislike of "new
tango" dancing (not movement by itself, though) denies the possibility
that people might sincerely enjoy this style. It's part of the
excitement of tango that people are different and that "attractiveness"
of a tanguero or tanguera can't be measured on a general linear scale.
Comparing the "new tango" to the emergence of cross and turns is not in
place. Above all, term "new tango" is tightly connected with the
emergence of "tango business", and has more to do with the ways people
are making their living with tango than with the music which dictated
the emergence of tango styles in the past. I think TangoKinetics would
be a much more appropriate name, and might one day find its way into the
ballet classroom as well...
Nevertheless, the emergence of such "step generating" fashion is a
welcome departure from the "milonguero style" craze. It is curious, but
not surprising, that only these two most extreme styles in name received
so much attention, like all the rest is kind of traditional and old
fashioned etc etc. Extremes are most obvious, "seen" even by the
blind... and such disposable extremism can be most easily confused with
innovativeness and even heroism, wherever there is a lack of historic
memory.
Best wishes,
Matej
http://lancelot.bio.cornmell.edu/matej/tango/
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:51:44 -0600
From: Robin Young <rdcuer @MICRON.NET>
Subject: [Fwd:Grandma]
> > >WHERE HAVE ALL THE GRANDMA'S GONE?
> > >
> > > In the dim and distant past
> > > When life's tempo wasn't so fast,
> > > Grandma used to rock and knit,
> > > Crochet, tat and baby sit.
> > > When the kids were in a jam,
> > > They could always call on Gram.
> > > But today she's in the gym
> > > Exercising to keep slim.
> > > Out every night dancing Salsa, Tango and Jive,
> > > With every Ricky, Eduardo and Clive.
> > > She's checking the web or surfing the net,
> > > Sending some e-mail or investing a bet.
> > > Nothing seems to stop or block her,
> > > Now that Grandma's off her rocker
> > >
> > >
> > IdahoWebSite http://netnow.micron.net/~ryoung
> "People don't stop dancing because they get too old;
> People get too old because they stop dancing." ANON
--
IdahoWebSite http://netnow.micron.net/~ryoung
"People don't stop dancing because they get too old;
People get too old because they stop dancing." ANON
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:34:35 EDT
From: Claude Dumont <CLDUMONT @AOL.COM>
Subject: About the term "New Tango"
Please we have enough conflicts on the world. Let us
come back to the floor of the Tango reality
As a matter of fact, is what is called *New Tango* really new.
Is the music new? I don t think so.
Are the steps new? No, all the steps are well-known.
Is the woman leading instead of the man?
Are more than two people dancing together?
The only thing I find new is the total ignorance of the
other partner (by man), and the introduction of a kind
of aerobic or gymnastic rhythmic.That probably made the
score of woman waiting during hours in the Cochabamba to
danse with Gustavo.
I Once shaw Chicho in La Estrella. He might as well have
dancing with a plastic doll. It would have had the same
effect.
Please remember, that Tango is not only a Dance. Befor
the dance was the music.
We can perhaps speak about a new style. We already
know the Milonguero style (for example Susana Milller
and Cacho Dante or Eduardo Aquimbau) , the style
called "Tango de Salon" or " Fantasia", but never about
a new Tango.
So I propose to rename the "new Tango" in a style called :
"Faguchiron"
Fa =Fabian, gu=Gustavo, chi=Chicho and ron for Veron.
But I am not sure that Pablo Veron is part of the"new Tango"
so instead it could be renamed:
"Faguchi" style
or "Faguchiclones" style
or perhaps "Faguchiclowns" style.
The second reason for renaming it is that Tango is coming
from Argentina or more specifically from BsAS and the
term "new Tango" is not really porteno (sory for the ~).
Please make propositions (not war)
About the First Congress, a ticket for the last Tango ball
was available for "only" $ 50.- . If that is cheap I am Bill Gates.
I don t have anything personally against Fabian or Gustavo.
Just perhaps by Chicho which is always so friendly like
a prison s door.
Claude, desde BsAs
PS: I find there is a lot of tango-scientifics and
tango-intellectuals in the TANGO-L!
End of TANGO-L Digest - 30 Jun 1999 to 1 Jul 1999
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