The Tango-L mailing list archive
Digest from 27 Aug 1999
to 28 Aug 1999
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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 03:00:04 -0400
Sender: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango <TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
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Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 27 Aug 1999 to 28 Aug 1999
There are 18 messages totalling 672 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Trolls
2. Flame on (was: Salida to back, etc.)
3. About Tangringo (2)
4. AT in New Hampshire?
5. (fwd) Re: About Tangringo
6. In support of Melinda & playing nice
7. TANGO-L Digest - 25 Aug 1999 to 26 Aug 1999
8. Great cat fight !
9. A City in the US looking for teachers
10. <No subject given>
11. I joined this list to increase my knowledge of tango, to have access to
workshop locations, and to
12. Just part of Life...
13. Tangringo and I joined this list to increase my knowledge of tango, (2)
14. Interview with a Legend/La Leyenda del Tango
15. Tangringo and I joined this list to increase my knowledge of
tango,
16. REGIONAL LISTS
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:32:26 +0200
From: Sabine Fuchs <Sabine.Fuchs @SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: Trolls
Well, I must say, while I never was offended by any message by Melinda
Bates, the messages by Joe Camper and and Laura Stevens are offending me a
lot - if this is your style of communication I can pretty well do without
it. It is completely out of line to tell someone to go to the psychiartrist
in that forum, not to mention the your other posts. IMO these trollish
messages are absolutely insane, and I wish they would stop - this is not
what I subscribed Tango-L for.
(I wonder if I will get hate posts now as well!)
Sabine
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:22:32 GMT
From: Ed Loomis <edl @WCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Flame on (was: Salida to back, etc.)
Oh boy, real flames. Maybe things will get interesting again.=20
Ed
On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 00:09:05 -0400, Laura Stevens
<laura.stevens @CANOEMAIL.COM> wrote:
>There she goes again.
(snip)
>No, Melinda, you are not brain dead. You are sick. The desease you have =
is called "clintonitis". Obviously you got it from your place of work - =
Clinton's White House. The most obvious symptom is lying and doing =
anything else possible to be the topic of everyone's conversation.
>
>Get yourself some help, Melinda! Go see a psychiatrist.
>
>You can't go back to Tango even if you wanted to. No man in his right =
mind will want to have anything to do with you.
>
>Adios, Melinda.
>
>Laura Stevens.
>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:14:42 EDT
From: Dario Mendiguren <C21DARI @AOL.COM>
Subject: About Tangringo
Dear List,
Do anybody knows something about our friend Tangringo. I have not hear
from him or read any post from him on the list lately, I miss his
comments and his input on his "Tango related opinions"
Please Tangringo, come back ! Dario
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:45:07 GMT
From: Lili khayatt <justlili @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: AT in New Hampshire?
Are there any subscribers who would kindly provide me with information on
Tango activity anywhere in New Hampshire? Thank you very much.
Lili
http://www.interlog.con/~elshaw/tght.html
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:23:55 -0400
From: Nancy Ingle <ningle @RHS.BREVARD.K12.FL.US>
Subject: Re: About Tangringo
>Dear List,
>
>Do anybody knows something about our friend Tangringo. I have not hear
>from him or read any post from him on the list lately, I miss his
>comments and his input on his "Tango related opinions"
>
>Please Tangringo, come back ! Dario
Hello Dario,
I believe Alberto Paz and Tangringo have started a new Newsgroup because
they were unwilling or unable to abide by the rules of this Tango-L. I
think some of the nastiness we are reading today was promoted by some
members of that new group to effectively kill this group. Certain people
have been 'invited' to join the new group....presumeably those people who
will agree with the annointed leadership on all issues - disagreement or
other opinions are not well-tolerated.
I hope they will be happy with their new group......and with the
homogeneity of their thoughts.
Sincerely,
Nancy Ingle
"He danced well, as if it were natural and joyous in him to dance, [with] a
certain subtle exultation like glamour in his movement, and his face the
flower of his body." D. H. Lawrence
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:10:58 GMT
From: Ed Loomis <edl @WCO.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Re: About Tangringo
On Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:23:55 -0400, Nancy Ingle
<ningle @RHS.BREVARD.K12.FL.US> wrote:
>Hello Dario,
>
> I believe Alberto Paz and Tangringo have started a new Newsgroup =
because
>they were unwilling or unable to abide by the rules of this Tango-L. I
>think some of the nastiness we are reading today was promoted by some
>members of that new group to effectively kill this group. Certain =
people
>have been 'invited' to join the new group....presumeably those people =
who
>will agree with the annointed leadership on all issues - disagreement or
>other opinions are not well-tolerated.
>
> I hope they will be happy with their new group......and with the
>homogeneity of their thoughts.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Nancy Ingle
>
Nancy's post, although no doubt sincere, is sadly lacking in facts.
Both TangoMan and Tangringo are not being heard on the Tango-L because
they have been suspended by the "Tango Authorities" over some petty
rule or another. Since the Great OZ will not deign to answer their
private email to him it is not entirely clear why either of them were
suspended or what the term of suspension will be.=20
Since the whiners waving their little rule books have effectively
stripped the Tango-L of useful and informative posts regarding tango
events (they all happen somewhere and are local to somebody) and the
enforcement of sanctions appears arbitrary to the point of caprice,
Alberto and Walter among others have started a new list which is open
to anyone and is unmoderated. The only condition is that we must post
under our own name and not use pseudonyms, which will mean taking
personal responsibility for our posts. Anyone who wishes may visit the
Argentine Tango Forum at http://www.egroups.com/group/argentine-tango/
and check this out for themselves. It's no secret. Ciao.............
Happy Tangos,
Ed Loomis
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:10:04 -0700
From: Michael Brooks <mbrooks @WIZARDS.COM>
Subject: In support of Melinda & playing nice
Dear Listeros,
I can hardly believe what's going on here. We don't really _know_ each
other--it is impossible through this email medium. Yet so many *personal*
insults are flying around, probably none of which would ever be said to the
recipient in person.
If I were Melinda, I'd be upset too about the unwarranted personal attacks
she's sustained on this list. As for trying to "be the center of
attention", I consider Melinda's posts to be insightful, on target,
relevant and well-written, frequent or not. Everyone has equal opportunity
to post.
Please--let's be pleasant and considerate of each other and get back to
tango. Let's leave the personal digs out of the list.
Abrazos,
(Ms.) Michael
Seattle, Washington
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:21:06 EDT
From: Frank Hunsicker <FHunsicker @AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: TANGO-L Digest - 25 Aug 1999 to 26 Aug 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:41:55 -0800
From: Steve Hoffman <DrSteveH @IBM.NET>
Subject: Great cat fight !
Hey, this is great!
I had thought (have been alway told) that basically MEN were the aggressive
ones - fighting, arguing, etc., - espcially on the internet. Now this
nasty spat between some of the women (Melinda, Laura, et al) !
Although I normally deplore the hostilities that periodically break out on
the Tango-L, you have to admit that there is some real entertainment value
here. A real cat fight.
How do I get the video?
Steve Hoffman
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:12:55 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango @FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: A City in the US looking for teachers
While there are many visiting teachers of tango doing weekend workshops in
United States, is there a city that needs a teaching couple for a long-term
commitment (two to four months) beginning April 2000?
Janis Kenyon
Buenos Aires
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:58:56 -0700
From: Colette Jacquet <colliedo @YAHOO.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>
I cannot believe that the message from 'Frank
Hunsicker' advertising XXXporno films got through the
Tango-L moderator! HELLO! Is there anyone driving this
bus?? This list seems to be rolling down hill at
breakneck speed.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:40:34 -0500
From: Deborah Anglin <DAnglin @CCCCD.EDU>
Subject: I joined this list to increase my knowledge of tango,
to have access to workshop locations, and to
I joined this list to increase my knowledge of tango, to have access to =
workshop locations, and to locate local milongas/classes when I travel. =
=20
I DID NOT join this group to enhance my knowledge of name calling, back =
stabbing, petty/childish behavior. or to learn where to buy x-rated =
videos. Frankly, I fed up with the level of "conversation" on this list.
Please remove me from this list immediately.
Deborah Anglin
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:52:29 EDT
From: Graciela Badt <Gratyb @AOL.COM>
Subject: Just part of Life...
The tango list is not the only place where inappropriate, malicious, or
offensive material/communication appears. While that is hardly a
justification for condoning it or taking part in it, why not deal with it in
the same way that we can deal with other unpleasant people and behavior
anywhere? Don't encourage it by responding to it. The list contains
informative and stimulating messsages, as well as a lot of garbage (as do
newspapers, magazines, books, and life in general).
Instead of missing out on the good stuff by removing yourself from the list,
or wasting your time and on-line minutes by responding to list-babble, just
delete what you can't use, and enjoy and take advantage of the rest.
There are many people on the list who truly love and understand tango, and
whose comments and ideas continue to inspire me. What doesn't interest me,
inform me, or please me, I just quickly make it disappear with a click of the
mouse. If only that worked outside the TANGO-L!
Graciela
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:27:21 -0500
From: kathleen kreher <kathleen @ROMANCEINBLOOMS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tangringo and I joined this list to increase my knowledge of
tango,
Date sent: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:40:34 -0500
Send reply to: Deborah Anglin <DAnglin @CCCCD.EDU>
From: Deborah Anglin <DAnglin @CCCCD.EDU>
Subject: I joined this list to increase my knowledge of tango,
to have access to workshop locations, and to
To: TANGO-L @MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> I joined this list to increase my knowledge of tango,
to have access to workshop locations, and to locate local milongas/classes
when I travel.
Unfortunately, the moderators of this list must not want you to have
that access. Many of the leaders of local tango communities (and
their supporters) have been silenced from this list for posting such
useful information. I believe that is what happened to Tangringo.
Kathleen
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:39:21 GMT
From: Lili khayatt <justlili @HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Interview with a Legend/La Leyenda del Tango
Profession: Argentine Tango Dancer
Age: No. No . She brushed that question aside. I don t want you to write
that
Films: Don t even ask me how many. Nor names nor dates. There s just too
many. Too many. I don t remember them all.
I was warned. Milena, the mongrel would put me to the test. She would first
intimidate me before allowing me to enter her mistress s territory. I
gratefully passed the scrutiny and was allowed into the home of Senora
MARIA NIEVES, the quintessential Tango dancer. Partner of Juan Carlos Copes.
A living legend.
Together they were the archetype and most famous couple of Argentine Tango
spanning almost 45 years together. Their life story was Tango. A story of
sensuality, passion, love. But also of rupture, depression and tragedy.
It was like entering a much-loved aunt s home. Welcoming, homey and
comfortable with Tango memorabilia spread throughout. Commemorative plaques,
awards, artists impressions, black and white photos of the famous couple,
that look, the face, those legs. Closets full of famous tango clothes. I
felt like a child in a candy store! We had just returned from that important
institution in Buenos Aires social and business life: the cafi.
Who were Nieves and Copes, and what drove them? I had asked. She ordered a
lagrima (a tear), mostly milk with drops or tears of coffee.
I m just Maria Nieves, the piba del barrio (the neighbourhood kid). I feel I
was born to dance; as if God tapped me on the shoulder and said you are
going to dance Tango. You are going to epitomize the Argentine woman. I did
not decide to do this for a living, it just developed that way. Inside, I am
that same person that went dancing as a child. It s in my feeling. I am
Tango and I feel very humble about that. Copes and I were just a couple from
the barrio who loved the Tango, and we had the tenacity to stay with it. We
said we would travel the world and we did. We became the ultimate Tango
couple.
Allow me Reader, a moment in my own Tango history, to bring you to what is
for me, a very momentous encounter with Maria. I saw my very first Argentine
Tango performance by chance back in 1968, at a nightclub in Tehran, Iran
called Miami. I can still remember it. It was overwhelming and literally
took my breath away. Today when I close my eyes I can still see that couple
moving on the stage with legs faster than I could watch. The memory has
never left me. In 1998 and many lives later, I was sitting at a cafi in the
old part of Montreal, in conversation with Maria s sister, Cristina Rey, my
friend and Tango teacher in Toronto. Cristina was reminiscing and relating
to me, at leisure, her past experiences in Tango: dancing on cruises,
meeting Goyeneche, travelling to Athens Cristina! I asked urgently. Have
you ever danced in Tehran? As a matter of fact, yes she continued
casually. I replaced my sister Maria there, and danced with Copes. It was
sometime in 1968 at a club called Miami . It s hard to describe what I felt
at that moment. I was stunned, totally immobilized. This is definitely not
coincidence. What were the gods telling me? I still shiver when I think
about it.
Today, making Buenos Aires my home and Tango my passion, I recount this
story to Maria who confirms to me that she had been unwell for that trip and
had sent along her sister to replace her. Then she looked at me
authoritatively and said: Lili, that s Tango s first call to you. Well, it
had to take almost 30 years for my life s circumstances to prepare and turn
me full circle back to Tango.
Tango? No one can define it, Maria says. It is a sentiment. And sentiments
are felt differently by everyone. That s why we all dance it differently,
because we feel it differently, and so we interpret it differently. No one
can really define it precisely because it is a feeling. A feeling that
always depends on the moment and sometimes, even on how you have woken up
that morning. I could not live without this sentimiento, she continues. The
worst punishment for me was not to be able to dance. No matter if I was sick
or had fever, I still went dancing.
Copes and I reached a moment when we became one person. Together we became
one body, one sentimiento. Much like when you make love, you become one and
you are sharing the same feeling. We worked hard and persevered, inspite of
any of the difficulties of the moment. The public does not care if your
mother has just died. The show must go on and we had to continue giving the
public the sensuality and the feelings of Tango.
Tango will never die because it is so beautiful and very sensual. There is
something in it that still excites me and makes me perspire. Only God knows
what that is. To dance it well, you have to love it enough. You have to love
it so much that it comes out of your pores, she emphasizes. When we were
young, we did not care if our partner was handsome or ugly, fat or thin etc,
just as long as he danced well, and dancing with such a person filled my
spirit.
When you are at a Milonga Maria, I asked, what do you see in a person that
makes you say this woman or man is a good dancer? An angel, she retorts. She
has an angel. When there is no angel, there is no personality. It is no
good. Some dance well but do not connect to me, because they have no angel.
In my case it was a combination of my personality, posture and attitude that
was saying: Here I am. And always feeling as if I am a Tango goddess.
(Something dear reader, that I can attest to. When Maria Nieves merely takes
her stand on the dance floor, there is magic in the room.) The public likes
that, she says. You see so little of that today. They are too tame. It is
precisely this energy that Piazzolla spoke of when he came to see me in
Brazil performing Maria de Buenos Aires: Hija de puta (he used to speak that
way). Tenes una energia que vos matas a la gente. Only you could dance this,
he said. He was very emotional.
Elegance is important. In Tango Salon one moves differently than when doing
a lot of figuras and acrobatics. Walking is important. Figures should be
done at the floor. Look at yourself in the mirror to be sure you are moving
with class, and not looking deformed. Tango is noble. Tango is sentiment. It
is not technique. Something I always repeat over and over.
Beginners lack confidence, get discouraged and leave. But Tango takes time.
And with time you will develop your own style. Ask yourself, am I dancing
because I love it or because it s fashionable. It s a mistake to change
teachers. Most young people are constantly changing teachers and end up
dancing badly. When you have a good teacher stay with them and then make
your own contribution, and put in your own style. The young people of today
owe a lot to Copes/Nieves, she says. We changed and revolutionized Tango and
gave it respectability. And these young people must do the same. We invented
a lot of our own steps. They must invent theirs. Sadly, today, there doesn t
seem to be anything knew. No one is presenting new ideas. We found our own
personality and style and the young have the responsibility to do the same.
Tango must change or it will die. Someone must come out and do something
different. But it must always be and remain Tango.
One has to be very tenacious in Tango. There are always illusions. When I
begin dressing for Tango, she recounts, and putting on my make up, I do it
as if I am going to meet the man of my life. I always had thoughts of
meeting my prince charming. This is clearly an illusion, and it happens to
everyone. Men, women, young and old. No, don t try to manage it. Let it
happen, Live with it. When I did not meet my prince that evening, I would
sit and enjoy the music, chat and have a drink with friends. Tomorrow is
another day. We are all too anxious and we want everything now, but that
can t be.
No, I don t have any real favourites. I love many, mostly orchestras of the
30 s and 40 s.
I owe everything to Tango. I came from a very poor family and did not study
much. But I traveled the world. That was my university. Tango gave me
everything. We were its true ambassadors. It gave me happiness, it gave me a
wonderful life. Thanks to Tango I continue to be able to have a decent
living today. My memories make me happy, they don t hurt me. There is
nothing I would do differently in my life. I would relive everything step by
step, even from the poverty and misery. I have such beautiful memories of my
youth, all thanks to Tango.
I could never retire. If I don t continue dancing professionally, I will
dance in the clubs. I would like to be remembered as a Tango dancer who
sacrificed family and having children for the Tango. We sacrificed
everything.
For all the Tango lovers in the world who will be reading this, what is your
message to them? I asked.
To love the Tango and defend it because it is one of the most beautiful
dances in the world. Lots of figures are not necessary, just put your heart
into it instead. Tango has no school. Each one dances as he feels it, but
dance it with your heart. Nadie es dueno de la verdad del Tango. Por eso
decimos el Tango es un sentimiento. No one is master of Tango s mystery.
That is why we say Tango is a feeling.
Finally, no sooner had I asked my last question of Maria, did I realize the
answer was somehow going to be painful. What I did not anticipate was that
the pain would be mine: If for some reason Tango was to be forbidden by law
tomorrow and you had one last tango to dance, who would it be with and to
what music?
The look on her face had the beauty and aura of a woman in love. I also saw
the 14 year old Maria. Her eyes lit up. She smiled a smile portraying years
of happiness, inspite of the heartbreak and pain that, sadly was to follow.
She said quietly, and almost shyly, I would love one last dance with Copes.
And dance it to Recuerdos.
Lili
http://www.interlog.com/~elshaw/tght.html
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 18:56:29 -0400
From: e_mass <e_mass @EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Tangringo and I joined this list to increase my knowledge of
tango,
>
> > I joined this list to increase my knowledge of tango,
> to have access to workshop locations, and to locate local
milongas/classes
> when I travel.
>
>
> Unfortunately, the moderators of this list must not want you to have
> that access. Many of the leaders of local tango communities (and
> their supporters) have been silenced from this list for posting such
> useful information. I believe that is what happened to Tangringo.
>
> Kathleen
OH, PLEASE, stop complaining, stop crying and finally GET REAL!
Tango is now so widespread that REGIONAL communities deserve their own
REGIONAL list for posting events, milongas and anything else of REGIONAL
interest, without bothering almost 1000 people around the world with the
hilliness and stomachache of the latest visiting master in your own (small)
backyard!
This is why I didn't complain with anybody, not even the VERY
REASONABLE Tango-L moderator, but started instead the following
REGIONAL lists:
- Floridatango - for events in Florida floridatango-request @lists.best.com
- TangoItalia - for events in Italy tangoitalia-request @lists.best.com
- Tango-de, for events in Germany. tango-de-requests @lists.best.com, hosting
Gary's initiative, even if I don't speak one world of german!
(to subscribe to any of the above lists, send a message with SUBSINGLE
youremail @yourserver in the body)
So, please, stop crying, and start DOING something!!!! (possibly start
dancing tango, it help a lot).
Ciao,
Enrico
I know that a number of other regional lists where started by others at the
same time,
some in US, and some in Europe. It would be perhaps useful for their list
owners to
refresh the memory of all on the list and send the reference to their
regional list,
and the instructions on how to subscribe to it, just in case some could be
interested.
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:23:15 -0700
From: Peter Adler <adlerpe @HOOKED.NET>
Subject: Re: Tangringo and I joined this list to increase my knowledge of
tango,
Enrico sez:
>
>I know that a number of other regional lists where started by others at the
>same time,
>some in US, and some in Europe. It would be perhaps useful for their list
>owners to
>refresh the memory of all on the list and send the reference to their
>regional list,
>and the instructions on how to subscribe to it, just in case some could be
>interested.
Perhaps the list of related mailing-lists and websites could be included in
a FAQ, posted to this list on a regular schedule (monthly, say), for the
enlightenment of the interested...
Peter <a musician keeping his head down> Adler
Berkeley, CA
Peter Adler
technical coordinator, BMUG
contributing editor, NeTProfessional Magazine
moderator, BMUG Music and Sound SIG/TelecomEssentials
(510) 845-4936
<adlerpe @hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:37:31 EDT
From: Cherie Magnus <MACFroggy @AOL.COM>
Subject: REGIONAL LISTS
Hi List, or what's left of it--
Just my 2 cents, but I enjoy reading about tango events around the world as
well as in my own backyard. I like to know what teachers are giving workshops
where, who's doing what when. It gives me a sense of community.
I found out a year and a half ago, when I began the tango traveling that
hopefully one day will qualify me as a Tango Bum, that the tango world is
small. I've made friends in milongas around the world, and have kept many of
them over the internet.
Communication is fantastic. Isn't that what we all require from a good tango?
Let's try to keep our minds open, as well as our knees together, and get on
with the dance!
Cherie
"One size does NOT fit all!"
http://www.viveladifference.com
End of TANGO-L Digest - 27 Aug 1999 to 28 Aug 1999
**************************************************